Why is it so difficult to Believe in Aliens?

originally posted by: ISeekTruth101
a reply to: JadeStar

Astronomers have found a planet thought to be the oldest planet in the known universe at around 13 billion years old. And they have found planets that are still forming.
At 4.5 billion years old, the Earth is less than half the age of the universe and so you could consider it (and the other planets in our solar system) as young.

That is correct and not like some major revelation either. We astronomers (and astronomy students) know and have known our solar system is on the young side (if our solar system were a person it would be a tween).

That's not the issue and still would not be the issue even if we found microbes on Mars or an exoplanet.

The issue is that we's still have no scientific evidence of any older civilizations out there. The moment we do (say by detecting one on an exoplanet somewhere) then we'll have evidence that technological intelligence may be common (since the chances of our finding it if it were rare would be very very small both due to space and due to time).

But even if we did find a crazy advanced civilization on planets around a nearby star system we STILL would have no evidence that such an advanced civilization travels amongst the stars.

That would require us detecting such travel in some form or another.

We're simply not there. Stay tuned, someday we might but those headlines are ones of tomorrow.

The most important factor in the Drake Equation is "L" the longevity of technological civilizations. It could be such that technological civilizations don't last long. If that's the case we could be surrounded by dead planets which once had civilizations and we're next to the trash can of history.

Since you like to use us as an example. We've had nuclear weapons, weapons which could wipe out everyone on Earth only for less than 100 years out of the hundreds of thousands of years homo sapiens have been around. Trust us not to use them in the next 65 million years (the lifespan of the dinos)?

originally posted by: ISeekTruth101
You do realise that we have theories today, by NASA, that might even be implemented soon, by NASA, regarding FTL - Faster than light travel.

No one is breaking the law here, and none of these scientists are trying to break the law. We are just looking for ways around it.

Correct. But do you understand what they are actually trying to test in those experiments? And do you understand that so far there is no conclusive proof that there is a way which we (or anyone else) could utilize to get around it?

I suggest that if you don't understand the experiments or want to know their current status you listen to this episode of Planetary Radio which goes into it: Miguel Alcubierre, Inventor of Warp Drive?

The difference between you and I is that I have an advanced astrophysics background and know what is actually being tested in the NASA experiments involving Dr. Harold "Sonny" White.

I won't bore you with the math or the hurdles however....

We're a LOOOOONG way from Warp Drives even if these experiments bore fruit (which they haven't).

Hence alien civilisations may have already found a way around it, and implemented, and have been visiting earth.

If that were the case we'd have a mountain of better evidence in the form of the repeated detections of space/time being warped in a linear way over time nearby from travelling craft but gravitational microlensing astronomy and other branches of astronomy (ie: gamma ray astronomy) doesn't either so your warp drives if they are in use, aren't being used in our neck of the woods and certainly are't being used to send craft here to abduct people in the middle of the night. If such abductions are happening outside the person's own mind, they have a cause much closer to home.

originally posted by: wmd_2008
a reply to: SPECULUMI believe 100% Aliens are out there, but does Mog from Zog visit or has he visited I don't think so, the same numbers that make a universe full of life make it difficult for them to exist at the same time and close enough to each other to visit.

Exactly.

We know next to nothing yet about the density and longevity of life or civilizations even in our own backyard much less the Galaxy.

There's nothing wrong in saying we don't know. But what we do know is that there are factors which unless the galaxy and universe are crawling with intelligent, technological species with a distribution of every 20 light years then it is probably not a trivial matter for even a super advanced civilization to visit in the numbers that the UFO crowd allege.

One main important reason why Aliens would visit Earth, would be to collect species that are on the brink of extinction and Archive them for posterity and to carry out experiments that would possibly help ensure their survival, just as we are attempting to do, except they have the Ability of Intergalactic travel..As a Zoo we have all the interesting exhibits and habitat that most anyone could appreciate, no matter where they are from. especially when they know we don't have the ability to resist

What's the difference between admitting that there is a probability that there are aliens somewhere out there in the vast reaches of space, and truly believing that they actually exist? Because to me, hypothetical aliens are just that... hypothetical. In fact, even if there are some aliens in some distant galaxy that actually exist, since we'll never, ever have evidence of them in any way, they qualify as hypothetical, and don't practically exist.

I guess I don't know why so many people have such a hard time accepting that along with the chance that aliens exist, there is also a chance that aliens absolutely do not exist anywhere in the universe. Earth is the only game in town.

This has nothing to do with the "arrogance" so often mentioned in these kinds of discussions. If anything, Earth being the only planet with life on it in the universe is humbling, and lonely. It means that when we're gone, there will be no one to remember us, and the universe itself will vanish.

a reply to: Blue Shift

The only proof a person needs of alien life is a mirror. It'd be too much of a waste if Earth is the sole planet of life, it'd go against the abundance rules of space. There's zero logic of an infinite "space" filled with an infinite number of orbs, and only one of those orbs has life. The sooner humans realize we have no idea what the hell's actually going and why or how, and that most of our theories are theories though we run with them as fact, the better our species will be. Humans hold themselves back, they're too stupid to think there's an advanced race out there possibly, and they're too busy bickering and disagreeing with eachother to actually be productive. Bottom line, we will never discover alien life unless we blow it up first. That's the ONLY thing we're good at. Makes ya kinda proud doesn't it?

Imagine an alien staring at a group of humans detonating the first A-bomb: A group of crazies wearing hard-hats poking up from a trench with binoculars, discovering for the first time that we could kill millions in a flash with little effort. What an achievement ...that's truly the best we have to offer, and it's no freaking wonder we all stare at the sky, gaping mouths, wondering if anything's out there. Would you visit us?

a reply to: SPECULUM

Humans struggle with the idea of aliens becuse we believe we are our GOD's only children.

Imagine you meet an unknown half sibling from another country. You may be skeptical, but ultimately, regardless of the sibling claim, you seek proof. If no proof can be given, you close the door.

Now imagine you entertain the claimed sibling. You seek a DNA test and it comes back positive for sibling match. Perplexed, you doubt, but the science says yes. Then it comes down to a choice, a reality of your own mind, an acceptance of the sibling.

What if you chose the sibling before the test? The results come back negative, yet a bond was formed. Or, what if you choose to adopt another sibling in mind because you long for more family? You do not view the results, you accept, no matter the result.

The latter is the best enlightenment, the most fulfilling choice, should it be made. Demand proof? Nope...choose and adopt.

Aliens are hard to believe because we fear the knock on the door. To each their own. Some of us need more family. Some of us choose community. We are part of a community, with limitless possibility and many, many more family members in waiting.

Our condition lends us to prosperity of our hearts, because we redefine our existence with every relationship we embrace. To act as if we are the only life capable of adapting to be included is to deny our own natural observance and existence.

Search your heart, know that the response knock is coming, for we knock everyday.

a reply to: Flesh699

Just imagine what an alien would think of us based on our movies news and books. As a species I'm not sure aliens would dare visit. And I'm afraid if they are watching us and hiding than that's really bad for us. If aliens are kidnapping us doing experiments and observing us they see us as lab rats. Trust me an invasion would be much better at least than they consider us a species worth fighting. The alternative is we our like domestic animals to them. If they think it's ok to kidnap and experiment that means we don't even register 8 their form of morality.

So you better hope aliens aren't here already of they are the human race is in real trouble.

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

I think the same but just because you or i can entertain the notion that we are not unique in this cosmos and alien life exists does not mean that everyone else shares the same view. People are brought up with preconceived notions and religious ideologies, sometimes they are not even aware they have, which can somewhat prohibit, retard or close off their mind to new ideas or allow them to entertain new prospects.

Consider that there is still rather a significant percentage of people who believed our Earth and life were created in six 24-hour periods, 10,000–6,000 years ago. And any attempt to bring reason to their obviously flawed logic generally results in words like heretic and blasphemer being thrown around.

a reply to: dragonridr

"Dont think religion would care in the least simply change the rules like they did in the past. If intelligent beings were discovered, they would also be considered "part of creation."

I tend to agree that organised religions would indeed adopt the policy that Aliens are part of creation should they happen to arrive, most lightly quoting some obscure passage from a book that claims to contain the word of God. But the real problem would lie with the fact that there arrival of would change the very social paradigm that humanity has followed blindly throughout recorded history. Whether or not this paradigm shift would be of a beneficial nature would probably dependent upon the Alien races intentions toward us. End of the day through their confirmed existence is going to somewhat upset our apple cart to some degree or another.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: ISeekTruth101
You do realise that we have theories today, by NASA, that might even be implemented soon, by NASA, regarding FTL - Faster than light travel.

No one is breaking the law here, and none of these scientists are trying to break the law. We are just looking for ways around it.

Correct. But do you understand what they are actually trying to test in those experiments? And do you understand that so far there is no conclusive proof that there is a way which we (or anyone else) could utilize to get around it?

I suggest that if you don't understand the experiments or want to know their current status you listen to this episode of Planetary Radio which goes into it: Miguel Alcubierre, Inventor of Warp Drive?

The difference between you and I is that I have an advanced astrophysics background and know what is actually being tested in the NASA experiments involving Dr. Harold "Sonny" White.

I won't bore you with the math or the hurdles however....

We're a LOOOOONG way from Warp Drives even if these experiments bore fruit (which they haven't).

Hence alien civilisations may have already found a way around it, and implemented, and have been visiting earth.

If that were the case we'd have a mountain of better evidence in the form of the repeated detections of space/time being warped in a linear way over time nearby from travelling craft but gravitational microlensing astronomy and other branches of astronomy (ie: gamma ray astronomy) doesn't either so your warp drives if they are in use, aren't being used in our neck of the woods and certainly are't being used to send craft here to abduct people in the middle of the night. If such abductions are happening outside the person's own mind, they have a cause much closer to home.

I completely understand, but I was merely pointing out the current direction that human science is going in, in pursuing FTL technology... and then alluding to the idea that Extraterrestial civilisations may have already succeeded, and achieved FTL travel.

Now had you looked back at everything I posted in this forum, I made no mention to specifics with regards to human transportation capabilities except to say that we are close to exiting our solar system....

As you can see I have some degree of understanding of how far our technology has advanced thus far...

originally posted by: JadeStar

Correct. But do you understand what they are actually trying to test in those experiments? And do you understand that so far there is no conclusive proof that there is a way which we (or anyone else) could utilize to get around it?

I suggest that if you don't understand the experiments or want to know their current status you listen to this episode of Planetary Radio which goes into it: Miguel Alcubierre, Inventor of Warp Drive?

The difference between you and I is that I have an advanced astrophysics background and know what is actually being tested in the NASA experiments involving Dr. Harold "Sonny" White.

I won't bore you with the math or the hurdles however....

We're a LOOOOONG way from Warp Drives even if these experiments bore fruit (which they haven't).

Hence alien civilisations may have already found a way around it, and implemented, and have been visiting earth.

If that were the case we'd have a mountain of better evidence in the form of the repeated detections of space/time being warped in a linear way over time nearby from travelling craft but gravitational microlensing astronomy and other branches of astronomy (ie: gamma ray astronomy) doesn't either so your warp drives if they are in use, aren't being used in our neck of the woods and certainly are't being used to send craft here to abduct people in the middle of the night. If such abductions are happening outside the person's own mind, they have a cause much closer to home.

Okay I will concede that you have a better understanding of astrophysics than I. But consider this, what is FTL? Put simply it is faster than light travel, meaning a mode of transportation that won't break the current laws of physics humans have come to ackhnowledge.

I am not concerned with how FTL is achieved, there may be numerous mechanisms, and many different ways in which this can be achieved (ways we have not even thought of yet) - and ways that are completely distinctive from one another.

Now given everything you just stated on detection, I am inclined to agree - that according OUR detection abilities and OUR understanding of science we do not detect alien craft if there are any in our neck of the woods.

BUT as I have already put the point forward that there may be civilisations that are thousands perhaps millions of years ahead of us in terms of technology... does this alone not blow all our detection capabilities out of the window if such a race WANTED to remain hidden??

Afterall, we might think of ourselves as advanced, have VAST knowledge of detecting anomalies in space-time, but how does that make us smarter than a race that has had a million more years of studying, and perhaps even smarter brains (physiologically)..

All of the above may at first seem too much like wild speculation. But you all said it yourselves - if you believe alien life exists out there at various stages of evolution THEN you must accept that there could be a race that is way more advanced and smarter then us...

As well as the possibility of races that are less advanced - but this is irrelevant to the point I'm making as both conditions can be true, unless you have me believe that earth is the centre of the universe and the first planet born. We don't want to sound to religious now do we?

The possibility of a more advanced extraterrestrial race neutralises any notions you have about our detection capabilities, our knowledge or astrophysics, and our understanding of science and FTL travel.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: ISeekTruth101
a reply to: JadeStar

Astronomers have found a planet thought to be the oldest planet in the known universe at around 13 billion years old. And they have found planets that are still forming.
At 4.5 billion years old, the Earth is less than half the age of the universe and so you could consider it (and the other planets in our solar system) as young.

That is correct and not like some major revelation either. We astronomers (and astronomy students) know and have known our solar system is on the young side (if our solar system were a person it would be a tween).

That's not the issue and still would not be the issue even if we found microbes on Mars or an exoplanet.

The issue is that we's still have no scientific evidence of any older civilizations out there. The moment we do (say by detecting one on an exoplanet somewhere) then we'll have evidence that technological intelligence may be common (since the chances of our finding it if it were rare would be very very small both due to space and due to time).

But even if we did find a crazy advanced civilization on planets around a nearby star system we STILL would have no evidence that such an advanced civilization travels amongst the stars.

That would require us detecting such travel in some form or another.

We're simply not there. Stay tuned, someday we might but those headlines are ones of tomorrow.

The most important factor in the Drake Equation is "L" the longevity of technological civilizations. It could be such that technological civilizations don't last long. If that's the case we could be surrounded by dead planets which once had civilizations and we're next to the trash can of history.

Since you like to use us as an example. We've had nuclear weapons, weapons which could wipe out everyone on Earth only for less than 100 years out of the hundreds of thousands of years homo sapiens have been around. Trust us not to use them in the next 65 million years (the lifespan of the dinos)?

Again I have acknowledged your points on our current scientific understanding and technology surrounding the detection of advanced alien races travelling between stars.

And you have acknowledged that advanced races could exist, well beyond our comprehension.

Yet you have failed to acknowledge my point in that these advanced races most likely view our science as primitive, and that everything you read in our science text books is limited by comparison to their science i.e. our detection capabilities and understanding of how the universe operates.


After all science only goes forward/ progresses right??? Meaning what we THINK we know now cannot possibly be the end all and be all of scientific knowledge. To quote a poster 'science is self correcting', agreed - science evolves as new information is gathered.

A race of beings with a million year head start (evolution throughout the universe at different stages) with physiological brains that grant them higher capacity then us (humans are smarter than animals) they could easily avoid detection if they wanted too.

Star trek ain't so far fetched now is it??? Races with warp drives remaining undetected when observing primitive civilisations on planets WITHOUT FTL technology.

GUESS WHAT!!! WE ARE THAT PRIMITIVE CIVILISATION IN THIS WHOLE SCENARIO


I am only going by what others in this forum have said about alien life, and simply going along with that.....

a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Well remember just because something is possible in the sci-fi world , it doesn't mean it's possible in the real world.

a reply to: wmd_2008

Thats true but its also worth keeping in mind that today's science fiction in tomorrows science fact.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: wmd_2008

Thats true but its also worth keeping in mind that today's science fiction in tomorrows science fact.

This has actually been proven to be true specifically with Star Trek: Next Generation

OT: You can Google it, but I think one of the technologies from star trek that possibly inspired a real-life, modern tech today is the Tablet

originally posted by: wmd_2008
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Well remember just because something is possible in the sci-fi world , it doesn't mean it's possible in the real world.

That's true, but then again people that write these TV shows don't base all their ideas on wild imagination, there are some theories behind the stuff you see on TV, they just take it in new directions that sometimes become real-world applications.

originally posted by: JadeStar

It's fun to imagine stuff but it's productive and scientifically relevant to actually investigate and calculate stuff.

I can agree with this, being of an engineering background myself I have done plenty of that, but seeing as I am in the aliens and ufo's forum, I think a prerequisite is to keep your mind open, and to imagine stuff -> that's how you get theories/hypothesis that leads to new information. Thinking about what you dont know, using what you do know. Not just using your text book as the repository of knowledge.

Where is the logic in this... if we are already venturing into space

We've barely done so.

Regardless of 'barely' we have done so - boolean logic meaning we can go into space end of story, how far is a matter of knowledge just like we built the first plane, and we broke the sound barrier .You can now take your measuring stick and apply it to the human race, while other races may have gone a bit further than 'barely'.

Of course not. However the universe has physical laws which are fairly well understood and universal in nature. The same laws will apply to aliens as apply to us the same energy requirements to travel near the speed of light or warp space to get around the speed of light will be required of any civilization regardless of the way they measure it or what kinds of energy they have access to.

Those energy requirements are not trivial so space travel between stars is probably not that trivial either. That's not speculation. That's physics.

Your problem is that you cling to your science text books too much that you are unable to think outside of the box, or attempt to view reality from the viewpoint of another lifeform, on a more advanced stage of evolution. You are in the aliens and ufo forum, you are allowed to think outside of the box - it is allowed here. Even if the laws remained unchanged, new approaches can be found - that's all you need to know.

Nope, you're linking two things which probably should not be linked.
Did dinosaurs travel to the stars? They were probably "alien life" to someone else for millions of years.....

Again that is a terrible example, as we are the most advanced stage of evolution on this planet in terms of intelligence right now. Why are you concerned with Dinosaurs - you know they can't build FTL let alone spell it, let's talk about human beings and our intelligence seeing as we exist today, leading to the correct assumption that life as intelligent or more intelligent can exist elsewhere in the cosmos.

Perhaps it is because technological intelligence is not inevitable.

Yet if many on this forum believe in evolution of life throughout the universe then we are living proof, no? Might not be inevitable or even probable, but it must happen if we are living proof, the universe is massive remember. And the distances are so vast to us I'm sure some other super advanced ET race see it as an irrelevant variable. Unless we are super duper lucky, then the religious folk will have a field day with this revelation.

Evolutionary biology is hard.

How do you know this, evolution cannot even be observed? That is quite a bold statement.

I and other astronomers have done that match and you're right we are young compared to most of our galaxy. It's a point I made on this forum and the space exploration one countless times.

However where your "logic" goes off the rails is assuming that life always leads to intelligent life (we don't know this, so you can't know this either) or that intelligent life always leads to technological intelligent life (we don't know this, so you can't know this either).


Lots of assumptions in your "logic". Too many for it to be considered sound reasoning. It's great speculation though.

To be honest, I did not start the speculation train, I simply got on the same train that you and the others are in - and started asking questions.

You and the others agreed that life evolves elsewhere in the universe, now if we are a prime example then clearly it can be deduced that even if not all life in the universe will reach a stage of intelligence, it CAN. Look in the mirror, we exist - meaning it can be done, and if you apply critical thinking it isn't too hard to imagine than you can get life that is even more intelligent then us.

I am going by your logic, and the statements of others. You agreed life can exist else where, if we exist and we are intelligent this means it can be done, thus why can it not happen again? The universe is so vast with however many planets, are we the only/ the most intelligent life out all lifeforms in the universe?

See the contradiction? You believe the universe is so big that it must contain life, and different stages of evolution, JUST not on our level or greater? Why?

BTW I am only putting forward possibilities, based on your statements, that must be logically true. And I put forward the human civilisation as evidence of/ an example of intelligent life. If it can happen once, it means it is possible again (regardless of probability as this is irrelevant) end of story.

If you want to continue to say it is very difficult, very hard, wildly improbably for evolution to reach our current level on earth because we are so lucky, then I reply with the most popular argument that is posed by believers of Extraterrestrial life = the universe is so infinitely big, it must have happened again somewhere.

I understand the vast distances across space, but again, they are only vast in the eyes of the beholder (a human being)

I think that human arrogance, fear, and simple skepticism pretty much cover it. To me, it seems only logical that with as large and old as the universe is that there is life out there somewhere. At this point though, the nature of those life forms is anybody's guess. I have not seen anything that I would consider conclusive evidence that points to aliens actually trying to contact us.

So I suppose I believe that there are alien life forms out there, but am unconvinced that they have the ability to or interest in contacting us.

originally posted by: Blue Shift
What's the difference between admitting that there is a probability that there are aliens somewhere out there in the vast reaches of space, and truly believing that they actually exist? Because to me, hypothetical aliens are just that... hypothetical. In fact, even if there are some aliens in some distant galaxy that actually exist, since we'll never, ever have evidence of them in any way, they qualify as hypothetical, and don't practically exist.

I guess I don't know why so many people have such a hard time accepting that along with the chance that aliens exist, there is also a chance that aliens absolutely do not exist anywhere in the universe. Earth is the only game in town.

This has nothing to do with the "arrogance" so often mentioned in these kinds of discussions. If anything, Earth being the only planet with life on it in the universe is humbling, and lonely. It means that when we're gone, there will be no one to remember us, and the universe itself will vanish.

I always enjoy your posts and I generally agree with you but I am always left a little depressed. We could one day invent a machine that turns these hypothetical aliens into real aliens. Kind of like the holodeck.