In Defense of Chemtrail Conspiracy Theorists: Part 8. Contrails Are NOT Their Only Concern

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Petros312
...you have tried to silence all debate against chemtrails by labeling all the debunkers with your extremely wordy posts.

1. Still waiting for the proper evidence that supports you are not a liar regarding your claim above.

2. You are making an illogical assumption from an opinion that may indicate you have trouble with your attention span when it comes to reading. Either that, or you're making the kind of logical fallacy I'd expect from less than a high school student:

Claim: You are trying to silence all debate against chemtrails
Evidence: Threads posted that are considered "wordy"
Conclusion: You are trying to silence all debate against chemtrails

non-sequitur, and circular reasoning.

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Petros312
...you bore the crap out of me. Please speak to others, not me...

You have no authority to stop me from responding to what you post. And yet, still further digging yourself into a hole, you feel threatened enough to continue posting -- and you do so STILL without providing the evidence to support you're not simply a liar accusing me of something I never said?

Look, the facts are in the posts above. But by all means, I'd rather individuals who can read more than a couple of paragraphs without getting bored participate in the discussion.

a reply to: Petros312

Look, the facts are in the posts above.

Facts or just your opinion?

I am going with opinions.

But by all means, I'd rather individuals who can read more than a couple of paragraphs without getting bored participate in the discussion.

Well instead of using walls of senseless text that usually ends up linking back to your own threads, how about posting something worth reading?

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Petros312
Well instead of using walls of senseless text that usually ends up linking back to your own threads, how about posting something worth reading?

--More antagonistic attempts to muffle your perceived opposition, and nothing more.


Three facts are pesented in this topic:

1. Debunkers of conspiracy theory do not have the authority to declare what anyone labelled a "chemtrailer" can or cannot be concerned about.

2. A group representing themselves under the motto: "Stop Spraying California" wants to see an end to ALL "Biological & Chemicals Agents" being sprayed onto US citizens from the sky, and this may include their concerns about persistent contrails, which may or may not be justifiable given the information they present specifically on persistent contrails, but they clearly have many more concerns than this.

3. Evidence has been presented that everything about "chemtrail conspiracy theory" is not simply a "hoax," as Wikipedia and other sources declare, UNLESS you establish that the only concern of chemtrail conspiracy theorists is that a persistent contrail is a toxic cloud.

I have said since day one that my opinion is the approach of debunkers is highly questionable given their process first assumes something is false and then all evidence gathering proceeds from there. Any fact finding or use of science within such an approach amounts to confirmation bias and the speading of half truths.

a reply to: Petros312

--More antagonistic attempts to muffle your perceived opposition, and nothing more.

No it's an attempt to get you to actually post something that doesn't just link back to your own threads, because in case you haven't noticed they don't prove a thing.

1. Debunkers of conspiracy theory do not have the authority to declare what anyone labelled a "chemtrailer" can or cannot be concerned about.

And who has told you that you can't be concerned with something, as what a debunker does is show you what your concerned about isn't something to be concerned about...Nobody is making you believe what a debunker says. But way to try and twist the facts around.

2. A group representing themselves under the motto: "Stop Spraying California" wants to see an end to ALL "Biological & Chemicals Agents" being sprayed onto US citizens from the sky, and this may include their concerns about persistent contrails, which may or may not be justifiable given the information they present specifically on persistent contrails, but they clearly have many more concerns than this.

Well first thing is they aren't just spraying biological and chemical agents on unsuspecting citizens.

As for persistent contrails...

As it has been said before the persistent contrail has been studied and they know what's in them, so exactly what is there to be concerned about?

which may or may not be justifiable given the information they present specifically on persistent contrails, but they clearly have many more concerns than this.

This goes right back to what I said before you post long winded responses that mean absolutely nothing.

3. Evidence has been presented that everything about "chemtrail conspiracy theory" is not simply a "hoax," as Wikipedia and other sources declare, UNLESS you establish that the only concern of chemtrail conspiracy theorists is that a persistent contrail is a toxic cloud.

And yet with all this so called evidence there is not one scientific study of a chemtrail while it was in the air...so without at least one it is a hoax.

And it's one by the very definition of hoax...

1hoax
verb \ˈhōks\
: to trick or deceive (someone)

www.merriam-webster.com...

And again we know what makes up persistent contrails...by using actual science and going up and getting samples of them, so can a chemtrail conspiracy theorist say they have that to back their claims?

I have said since day one that my opinion is the approach of debunkers is highly questionable given their process first assumes something is false and then all evidence gathering proceeds from there. Any fact finding or use of science within such an approach amounts to confirmation bias and the speading of half truths.

You really need to learn how to get your point across without having to type out long winded replies.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Petros312
No it's an attempt to get you to...

--Ah..."to get you to," the manipulation revealed!

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Petros312
what a debunker does is show you what your concerned about isn't something to be concerned about...

--You're just repeating what I said when I said above that debunkers have no actual authority to tell the people who they call "chemtrail conspiracy theorists" what they should or should not be concerned about.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Petros312
...they aren't just spraying biological and chemical agents on unsuspecting citizens.

--You deny that it has already been done. See:
In Defense of Chemtrail Conspiracy Theorists: Part 3. Experiments in the Sky
In Defense of Chemtrail Conspiracy Theorists: Part 4. Matters of "National Security"
Read what Rosalind Peterson says is being sprayed here:
In Defense of Chemtrail Conspiracy Theorists: Part 7. Steward of the Earth



-and before you tell me for the tenth time all I'm doing is linking back to my own posts, each initial thread topic contains links to other informational websites to support the premise in each topic.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Petros312
As for persistent contrails...

As it has been said before the persistent contrail has been studied and they know what's in them, so exactly what is there to be concerned about?

--See 5 points mentioned by Rosalind Peterson when she addressed a UN summit In Defense of Chemtrail Conspiracy Theorists: Part 6. Contrail vs. Chemtrail

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Petros312
And yet with all this so called evidence there is not one scientific study of a chemtrail while it was in the air...so without at least one it is a hoax.

--*No. You're only referring to the "normalcy" of a persistent contrail, which I discussed here:
In defense of Chemtrail Conspiracy Theorists: Part 6. Contrail vs Chemtrail
Plus, the people who are labelled chemtrail conspiracy theorists clearly have more concern about what is sprayed into the sky that has nothing to do with a persistent contrail, which I discussed here at this post, Part 8.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Petros312
And again we know what makes up persistent contrails...by using actual science and going up and getting samples of them, so can a chemtrail conspiracy theorist say they have that to back their claims?

--Again, see * above regarding your reductionism concerning contrails.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Petros312
You really need to learn how to get your point across without having to type out long winded replies.

--No offense, but it looks to me like your own post is fairly "long winded" with little point to it.

The validity of SOME of the content being presented at the web page above is questionable. However, the point is you see that a group representing themselves under the motto: "Stop Spraying California" wants to see an end to ALL "Biological & Chemicals Agents" being sprayed onto US citizens from the sky

As laudable of a goal as that may be, those people better clean up their act if they want to be taken seriously. Browsing around on their website, it becomes abundantly clear that it's just another chemmie site with all the usual nonsense being peddled.

They keep going on on how they are being sprayed with this and that, and then post pictures of contrails, the KC10 video, ballast tanks, and all the other usual suspects which have been debunked a long long time ago.

So while these people may also have concerns about things that DO exist, those get snowed under by the barrage of nonsense one finds on their site. I really don't understand what you're trying to accomplish here. Go and talk to those chemmies and debate the veracity of their claims if you want to accomplish something meaningful, instead of wasting your time here trying to convince us that a chemtrail conspiracist may also have concerns that have something to do with reality (and still call them chemtrails).

Just have a look at this bunch of mumbo jumbo from their site (the one you linked to):

Chemical Trails or Chemtrails or Aerosols are a very real threat to humanity on a global scale. It is unclear exactly who is behind the planetary operation that is spraying innocent citizens with toxic chemicals containing among other things calcium, magnesium, barium and aluminum oxide and other sub-micron particulates containing live biological matter.

It is easy to blame local government officials for this operation, but it is most likely something that is being coordinated at a much higher level and kept in secret by ridicule and threats. Having said that anyone who continues to aid this operations existence should be held 100% accountable for its effects on the population it harms. We would like to suggest that anyone willing to blow the whistle on such operations be given complete immunity and celebrated like a true hero. Those who continue to contribute to these acts of illegal bio terror should be apprehended and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

What is a Chemtrail?

A Chemtrail is a chemical trail that is sprayed from 10,000 to 20,000 feet to avoid commercial air traffic, and to better control the diffusion into the local area. Marker planes are used to lay down indicators marking the borders for the heavier planes to spray metric tons of toxic particulates into the region below.

Some of the official cover stories for Chemtrails

All forms of government have weighed in on the matter of Chemtrails. Here is a list of common lies that surround this attack on the human race.

Ice Crystals
Contrails are the 10 to 15 second trails that follow normal commercial aircraft. This is due to ice crystals forming within the vapor trails of normal jet engines. There is one catch with these being submitted as the cause for Chemtrails…they don’t last more than 45 seconds at a top estimate. Chemtrails never subside, and later wisp into cloud looking structures that are later mistaken for natural objects.

Bad Fuel Mix
If this were the case, then on any given day, dozens of planes are filling up at the same gas station, which given the nature of airports is a ludicrous assertion.

Reflective Shield Against Global Warming
First and foremost, Global Warming is a scam of the highest order. Secondly, there aren’t enough planes in the world to begin to attempt this charade of cover story. To laden the entire atmosphere with a powder would take thousands of times more planes flying around the clock and it would be a safe estimate that we the people below would be covered head to foot in the fallout. This cover story has been taught to eight graders in America to certify this deadly program as “good” to unsuspecting and trusting children. Lying to children in our mind is the most devious act any adult could ever engage in. If your child has been taught this, it is imperative that you undo this untruth.

When Did Chemtrails Begin?

There is mixed evidence to support varying answers. Most agree that in the late 1990s a more concentrated effort arose to spray every major populated area with Chemtrails. The musician Prince admitted that when he was a young man in the late 1960s early 1970s he would notice Chemtrails sprayed over his neighborhood. There are photographs dating back to the late 1940s that show fleets of planes leaving smoke trails behind, but it is impossible to verify the authenticity nor circumstances behind these photos.

A community in Santa Fe New Mexico noticed a violent increase in Chemtrail occurrence towards the end of 1997. The retirement community is populated with artists who enjoy painting the local vistas and noticed that planes were disrupting the normal blue skies with white trails that never seem to go away, but merged to create hazy cloud like cover.

The True Scale Of Chemtrail Operations

One of the most damning aspects of the evidence is that Chemtrails have been sampled globally, and in all cases have been found to contain at a minimum barium and aluminum oxide. If Chemtrails were created by any of the suggested means that are friendly to the environment, this wouldn’t be the case. Skies that have no Chemtrails do not drop barium or aluminum oxide particles. Samples have been taken from America, Australia, The Asian Pacific Rim, England, and Europe.

The Death Is In The Details – Sub Micron Particulates

Chemtrails harbor extremely devious components that are not to be taken lightly. These particulates can be categorized into three categories: ionized metallic salts, fibrous materials, and desiccated human red blood cells. The purpose of these particulates is of course a mystery if one needs to press for certain cause. What we can know about these materials is their effect on the human body, and potential use by nefarious owners.

Ionized Metallic Salts / Barium Oxide
Salt has a profound effect on the atmosphere and the human body. In the simplest sense, salt gives water or moisture the ability to carry an electrical charge. If the human body is converted into an electrical circuit then the ability to control that body through electrical stimulation becomes possible. Keep in mind that these particles are on the fraction of a micron scale, and can enter the body through any membrane on the epidermis. Government weapons such as the HARRP antenna in Alaska have the patented (investigate Bernard Eastlund) ability to broadcast neuro-frequencies over a population creating an general pattern of thought process. It sounds like science fiction, but it’s truly science fact. HARRP is unique in that it possesses the power to tap into ELF energy that sustains the human mind and nervous system. As the atmosphere is manipulated through electrical means, a human’s ability to maintain control over their thoughts and internal neural communication is impaired. This can lead to mood manipulation as well as basic physical processes.

And on it goes, complete with pictures of contrails.

www.stopsprayingcalifornia.com...

Eight threads! Well done, Petros!

If you keep it up you'll be proven right in the end. You guys are giving people ideas, and sooner or later someone will start spraying something.

originally posted by: payt69
Just have a look at this bunch of mumbo jumbo from their site...

"Chemical Trails or Chemtrails or Aerosols are a very real threat to humanity on a global scale. It is unclear exactly who is behind the planetary operation that is spraying innocent citizens with toxic chemicals containing among other things calcium, magnesium, barium and aluminum oxide and other sub-micron particulates containing live biological matter."

--no mention of a "contrail" in this paragraph above or replacing the term "contrail" with "chemtrail." It is simply true that the military is responsible for putting "chemical trails" of aluminum and biological agents into the air. You may believe their language is sensationalized (e.g., "who is behind the planetary operation...") but they are understandably outraged.

originally posted by: payt69
[still quoting the StopSprayingCalifornia website] "It is easy to blame local government officials for this operation, but it is most likely something that is being coordinated at a much higher level and kept in secret by ridicule and threats. Having said that anyone who continues to aid this operations existence should be held 100% accountable for its effects on the population it harms."

--I agree, and the "ridicule and threats" are also a function of what many debunkers do. There's no "mumbo jumbo" about people who should be held accountable for dispersing pollution even in the form of persistent contrails in the sky--the result of unregulated air traffic.

originally posted by: payt69
[Still quoting the Stop SprayingCalifornia website] "What is a Chemtrail?

A Chemtrail is a chemical trail that is sprayed from 10,000 to 20,000 feet to avoid commercial air traffic, and to better control the diffusion into the local area. Marker planes are used to lay down indicators marking the borders for the heavier planes to spray metric tons of toxic particulates into the region below."

--Sure. That's based on speculation and at this point has no empirical evidence to support it.

originally posted by: payt69
[Still quoting the StopSprayingCalifornia website] "Some of the official cover stories for Chemtrails

All forms of government have weighed in on the matter of Chemtrails. Here is a list of common lies that surround this attack on the human race.

Ice Crystals
Contrails are the 10 to 15 second trails that follow normal commercial aircraft. This is due to ice crystals forming within the vapor trails of normal jet engines. There is one catch with these being submitted as the cause for Chemtrails…they don’t last more than 45 seconds at a top estimate. Chemtrails never subside, and later wisp into cloud looking structures that are later mistaken for natural objects."

--The above contains true information. A "chemtrail" can be defined as a human-made cloud. There doesn't have to be anything nefarious about it, even though there are indeed hazards, as I discussed at In Defense of Chemtrail Conspiracy Theorists: Part 6. Contrail vs. Chemtrail, and this includes how cirrus cloud formation can cause global dimming and contribute to daytime global warming.

originally posted by: payt69
[Still quoting the StopSprayingCalifornia website] "When Did Chemtrails Begin?

There is mixed evidence to support varying answers. Most agree that in the late 1990s a more concentrated effort arose to spray every major populated area with Chemtrails. The musician Prince admitted that when he was a young man in the late 1960s early 1970s he would notice Chemtrails sprayed over his neighborhood. There are photographs dating back to the late 1940s that show fleets of planes leaving smoke trails behind, but it is impossible to verify the authenticity nor circumstances behind these photos."

--I still see no "mumbo jumbo" here. Persistent contrails increased in the 90s (even before that according to Rosalind Peterson). He admits post WWII photos show airplanes leaving behind trails. I agree in general in the age of Photoshop it is difficult to verify the authenticity of some photos, but persistent contrails were observed in WWII, albeit aircraft used different engines.

originally posted by: payt69
[Still quoting the StopSprayingCalifornia website] "A community in Santa Fe New Mexico noticed a violent increase in Chemtrail occurrence towards the end of 1997. The retirement community is populated with artists who enjoy painting the local vistas and noticed that planes were disrupting the normal blue skies with white trails that never seem to go away, but merged to create hazy cloud like cover."

--No "mumbo jumbo." The above is about an observation of an increase in persistent contrails to the point that the whole sky is obliterated -- a phenomenon that still occurs today.

originally posted by: payt69
[Still quoting the StopSprayingCalifornia website] "One of the most damning aspects of the evidence is that Chemtrails have been sampled globally, and in all cases have been found to contain at a minimum barium and aluminum oxide. If Chemtrails were created by any of the suggested means that are friendly to the environment, this wouldn’t be the case. Skies that have no Chemtrails do not drop barium or aluminum oxide particles. Samples have been taken from America, Australia, The Asian Pacific Rim, England, and Europe.

--I believe they are referring to indirect evidence of a correlational type, as in soil and water samples, and correlational evidence is not incontrovertible, but it is correlational. What kind of relationship that exists between these elevated levels of aluminum or barium and what came from something sprayed in the sky is unknown.



So, what you see on the website has both unverified "mumbo jumbo" but also has information that is not. This is what I said above. But before you start pulling out all the tiny details of what they're wrong about, remember the only purpose I had for going to their StopSprayingCalifornia website was to provide evidence that the people who get labelled "chemtrail conspiracy theorists" are NOT only concerned about persistent contrails. They are talking about things like a) aluminum coated fiberglass chaff, b) warfare open-air testing, and c) jet fuel emissions.

I believe what would make debunkers freak out about information on websites such as StopSprayingCalifornia is indeed simply the term "chemtrail." The people in California have legitimate reasons to use the term.

So, what you see on the website has both unverified "mumbo jumbo" but also has information that is not. This is what I said above. But before you start pulling out all the tiny details of what they're wrong about, remember the only purpose I had for going to their StopSprayingCalifornia website was to provide evidence that the people who get labelled "chemtrail conspiracy theorists" are NOT only concerned about persistent contrails. They are talking about things like a) aluminum coated fiberglass chaff, b) warfare open-air testing, and c) jet fuel emissions.

I believe what would make debunkers freak out about information on websites such as StopSprayingCalifornia is indeed simply the term "chemtrail." The people in California have legitimate reasons to use the term.

I didn't expect you to actually defend that load of garbage they have on their website. Let's pick just one point, which is the main pillar the whole chemtrail business rests on: They claim that a contrail never lasts longer than 45 seconds. Do you agree with that?

And sure, they may be talking about chaff, open air testing and jet fuel emissions, but my point is that all of those valid points get snowed under by all the nonsensical chemtrail babble. And to them those things are CHEMTRAILS (the way THEY define them, not YOUR definition), and THAT's why they're worried about it. I don't see them worry about any other industrial pollution or testing. I never see chemmies organize global marches against coal plants or car emissions, even when those are way worse than jet emissions.

They're scared of jets and clouds, and that's why they protest against what they think are 'chemtrails'. And indeed they don't protest against 'persistent contrails', because they don't believe such a thing exists (as you can read in the quote from the site).

a reply to: payt69
Do not forget their proof "Look Up." If you look up you will not see chaff, you will not see the CO2 pollution, you will see the white lines in the sky.

originally posted by: blargo
a reply to: payt69
Do not forget their proof "Look Up." If you look up you will not see chaff, you will not see the CO2 pollution, you will see the white lines in the sky.

Good point

a reply to: Petros312

If they think that contrails cannot last longer than 45 seconds, then they, by their own statement, regard any white line in the sky that exceeds this as a chemtrail. So then they ARE afraid of persisting contrails and clouds. Despite your lengthy protestations to the contrary. They see persisting or spreading contrails as proof of their fears, not because they contain pollution, as you've tried to claim, but simply because they are THERE and they don't understand WHY. LOOK UP indeed, as if one can see tiny molecules of pollution miles high in the sky. Just like debunkers have been trying to get you to grasp. They aren't saying contrails are chemtrails. This was you. They are saying contrails are DIFFERENT from chemtrails (they don't last as long), whilst misunderstanding what a contrail is. This single misunderstanding then means they see long lasting trails as evidence of geoengineering, as evidence of aluminium and barium spraying and all the other bunkum that the scammers spread. This is the fallacy that debunkers argue against.