ASWAN QUARRY Was it really STONE POUNDERS Which left these marks?

For anyone who's interested, I found information to back up the comments about livestock and feeding the pyramid builders of Giza Complex.

Feeding the Giza workforce

At the workers' town, which was likely occupied for 35 years, researchers have discovered a plethora of animal bones. Although the researchers are still unsure of the exact number of bones, Redding estimates he has identified about 25,000 sheep and goats, 8,000 cattle and 1,000 pig bones, he wrote in a paper published in the book "Proceedings of the 10th Meeting of the ICAZ Working Group 'Archaeozoology of southwest Asia and adjacent Areas'" (Peeters Publishing, 2013).

Link

Needless to say, pyramid building is hard work. The workers would need at least 45 to 50 grams of protein a day, Redding said. Half of this protein would likely come from fish, beans, lentils and other non-meat sources, while the other half would come from sheep, goat and cattle, he estimated. Milk and cheese were probably not consumed due to transportation problems and the cattle's low milk yield during that time, Redding said.

Combining these requirements and other protein sources with the ratio of the bones (and the amount of meat and protein one can get from an animal), Redding determined about 11 cattle and 37 sheep or goats were consumed each day.

Link 2

Clearly, I'm linking Giza here when the OP is about Aswan quarries. The point is that Ancient Egypt was geared towards accommodating huge workforces and evidence shows they had the resources for food, fluid and shelter. One wonders why so much food was consumed and so many workers required if hard graft wasn't part of the building projects.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Worlds largest rotator tow truck

The king of recovery!!! 6 axle, twin steer. custom built kenworth., with a rating of 100 tons and no! this is not a crane!! this is a tow truck this has an under lift, Watch part 2 to see it action.

The king of recovery!!! 6 axle, twin steer. custom built kenworth., with a rating of 100 tons and no! this is not a crane!! this is a tow truck this has an under lift, Watch part 2 to see it action.

Replacing the cattle with the truck thne wed need 1200/100 = 12 of these trucks to pull it, notice the trucks underlift. That must be the leverage action it needs to lift nose of weight its towing and noting your observation the oblisk is deliberately angled up at nose.

a reply to: AthlonSavage

Good call! It helps to put it into context for modern eyes

I'm more and more inclined to think that big bastard was ordered by someone important who expected results...and was unrealistic. However we look at it, it seems that it was doomed to failure. It's hard to see how they'd have manoeuvred it out of the quarry although it perhaps explains why they were so scrupulous to keep the quarry floor as smoothed out as was practical.

The way Egyptian society was set up made saying 'No' to higher-ups difficult. Up here in England, the whole country tried saying 'no' to the Millennium Dome. Didn't make a difference and we're in a democracy with free speech. Imagine trying that with Hatsheput's high officials and their armed guards?!

a reply to: Kandinsky

If some asked me to solve a problem how to move the oblisk with using the minimal help of technology and no engines, nor exotic anti grav tech. I would use this idea. I would construct a triangle platform under the oblisk with a large axil two wheeler centre at the mass centre of balance. The wheels would need to be slotted into a railing track system to stablise the motion of the force. The other aspect of this mechanism is the ability to tilt the tail end up just far enough to tilt the centre of balance so the weight is drawn down hill, like a see saw works. Then the thing lurches forward a length, and keep repeating. The amount of manual labour required goes down significantly, and problems with coordination and stabilising forces (not to fracture) are manageable a lot more effectively.

a reply to: AthlonSavage

It's an interesting idea and the AEs had just about started using wheel technology for chariots around that general period.

An immediate issue would be weight. The ~1200 tons would be directly bearing down on the frame, axle and wheels. If something could be constructed to maintain structure under pressure, the wheels would need to retain their shape for distance. If the weight deformed ('ovalised' lol) the wheels, it'd be game over immediately and they'd need replacing. Instead of wheels, a solid barrel like that on a steamroller would be more successful but we'd back into the realms of secret technology.

For all round safety and efficiency, I think pulling it along a horizontal plane would work best. Going back to the windlasses, they could have (for other obelisks) installed them, pulled the object, moved them, reinstalled them, pulled etc etc. Using a windlass would also include oxen which would reduce energy required again.

It isn't like they had to move these things at speed. They could spend all day setting up one set of windlasses and then moving the object a few metres before setting them up again. Using oxen to tow along the ones of a couple hundred tons could have aimed for inertia and momentum. The Romans moved them 100s of miles; Egyptians only needed local distances.

a reply to: Kandinsky

One interesting video I watched on ancient eygpt focused entirely at looking the hieroglyphs on various AE structures, which revealed interesting an older unknown language symbols carved deep into various items. The deep carvings were surrounded may times with the regular AE symboles around, these were inset at a much shallower depth into the granite surface. This indicates to me there we a group who came before the AEs and did the building. I see it likely that at some point the AEs interacted with these group and learnt things and supported them in the builds. In some cases these originals honoured the AEs by building monuments to them. When the original builders were gone however the AEs didn't have enough knowledge to continue do things stopped.

a reply to: Kandinsky

An immediate issue would be weight. The ~1200 tons would be directly bearing down on the frame, axle and wheels. If something could be constructed to maintain structure under pressure, the wheels would need to retain their shape for distance

If I had to solve this problem, I would consider building a frame with a membrane inside filled with air like an air bag in car. Then fill a trench with still water. This would alleviate loading force between the ground and axil and axial and frame. The thing would still lurch forward in manner describe but water would help provide the breaking action and reduce loading acceleration forces on wheel/axial when lurching forward.

These marks were not made with stone pounders -

Yes they were and thats exactly what they look like, the world over.
All the same size indentations of people sitting side by side, pounding out one small section each, all_day_long.

Of course we impatients can't imagine the time they had on their hands to accomplish it.

Who the hell would do that all day long?

They might have the same opinion of us… "who the hell would sit all day staring at a little piece of plastic?"

"They don't accomplishing anything in the future. All day they sit around typing, soil the earth and kill each other in huge destructive cataclysms."

a reply to: AthlonSavage

Those are called palimpsets (sp??) where older images are covered over and the space reused. A lot of it was dictated by the way their societies were geared and the venal nastiness of the dynasties and families. They could be absolutely murderous and conniving when it came to power with brother and sister vying for power.

It wasn't uncommon for a heir to have the traces of their own father's reign removed from public view. They;d replace/cover over with their own cartouches.

In terms of lineage, we have various lists from Ancient Egypt called the 'Kings Lists' iirc. They cover centuries of Pharaohs going back to Early Dynastic. There are more than one and they (largely) tie in together so where one says Rameses reigned after so-and-so, another does too. There have been discrepancies that scholars have worked out using other sources and archaeological evidence.

Where I'm going with all this is to say the AE lineage is pretty well established and timelines are evidenced by architecture, mastabas etc. They have the cartouches of families, Pharaohs and so on that bring it all together as a consistent representation of the historical record. Because we can plot progress from tunnel graves to mastabas and onwards, there's no room left in the historical record for lost peoples. There's no wiggle room to squeeze in an advanced civilisation or extraordinary culture.

(all this is from recall and can be backed up...if I've made an error...it's memory!)

a reply to: Kandinsky

I don't dispute the Dynasties linage etc. What im saying is someone else out side the Dynasties held and controlled the knowledge for building, and the AEs did their best to learn this although it wasn't good enough when the master builders left the Ancient world lost it gas, and fizzled out.

a reply to: AthlonSavage

Yes, I understood your original idea. What I was trying to say was that the history in that region has been sewn up and established until around 10kya. There's no evidence of civilisations pre-dating the Egyptians in either North Africa or around the Med basin.

With the pyramids, they follow an engineering trajectory that makes sense. Graves, tunnel graves, mastabas, step-pyramids, messed up pyramids and then those of Dhjoser and Khufu as a pinnacle of the style.

Yes, pyramid building declined in size after Khufu. No denying that. However, why would the Egyptians follow a stepped progression towards building a pyramid? Why even build mastabas? If even one pyramid was there to emulate, why didn't they do that instead of faffing about for a thousand years of trial and error?

There's no denying that Imhotep was a remarkable guy. One of those 'once in a generation' souls who enrich humanity with their vision and ideas. Could he have been a holder of secrets from elsewhere? Who knows? A lot of the quality historical written record gets patchy iirc so we don't know whose shoulders he was standing upon.

a reply to: Kandinsky

When i refer to someone else out side the Dynasties held and controlled the knowledge for building, they may not necessarily been a civilisation. They could of been just a handful of, travellers wanders, people from earth or even people from elsewhere. The Eygptians have various depictions to skygods and thats not outside the realm of possibility for me. The sky gods being master builders, mabey they were stranded here and had to employ innovative technological ideas to what they normally would accomplish with machinery. The AEs were in awe of them, saw them as Gods, but they both had a mutally satisfying likening of each other, with the AEs worshiped them providing a haven and the master builders repayed that back by building for them, and in some cases large statues to stoke the Dynasty kings egos.

There's no denying that Imhotep was a remarkable guy. One of those 'once in a generation' souls who enrich humanity with their vision and ideas. Could he have been a holder of secrets from elsewhere? Who knows? A lot of the quality historical written record gets patchy iirc so we don't know whose shoulders he was standing upon.

I think the story where getting told is a half story of history, the reasons for that are speculative enough fill another thread.

The reasons for a stepped progression could be a number of reasons for that. One good reason is always prototyping which is generally means there are technical problems which require the thing built to solve. Those problems could do with materials, construction techniques, logisitics, a lot of different factors. There may of been exotic reasons as well, so left field we cant see them. The only thing certain to me about the Pyramids in Giza is they still hold many more secrets and I doubt we will ever find them all out.

originally posted by: CretumOrbis

Excellent video and a spot-on presentation ... 38 minutes to declare the case closed: there was an advanced civilization at work back in the day, with stone working technology that far surpasses even today's possibilities.

I haven't heard of Andrey Sklyarov before, but he does in fact provide an intriguing analysis of the toolmarks and traces left behind in some of the inexplicable stonework found in Egypt and Peru (similar to Chris Dunn, although with quite a few new aspects).

This really is a "must-watch" IMO, thanks for sharing!

originally posted by: AthlonSavage
a reply to: Kandinsky

I don't dispute the Dynasties linage etc. What im saying is someone else out side the Dynasties held and controlled the knowledge for building, and the AEs did their best to learn this although it wasn't good enough when the master builders left the Ancient world lost it gas, and fizzled out.

I tried to address this factor in other threads... the unknown architects/engineers were the exiled elders from Atlantis... we have linked these knowledge givers to the ancient TOTH.. or even Hermes
see: www.maat.sofiatopia.org...
or: www.amaluxherbal.com...

toth-&-hermes are just metaphors for superior, technology implementation and organization... knowledge of Pi and the Golden Ratio and other mathematical concepts...things beyond the mundane world of nature, the secret codes which made nature perform...

originally posted by: jeep3r

originally posted by: CretumOrbis

Excellent video and a spot-on presentation ... 38 minutes to declare the case closed: there was an advanced civilization at work back in the day, with stone working technology that far surpasses even today's possibilities.

I haven't heard of Andrey Sklyarov before, but he does in fact provide an intriguing analysis of the toolmarks and traces left behind in some of the inexplicable stonework found in Egypt and Peru (similar to Chris Dunn, although with quite a few new aspects).

This really is a "must-watch" IMO, thanks for sharing!

Yes agreed this is a fantastic video. It’s made by the members of a Russia group called the Laboratory of Alternative History. Their forum is by far the best resource on the net for this kind of information. Here’s the website address -

laiforum.ru...

- it’s pretty simple to negotiate in Google Translate.

They have also recently released this video too which is another great watch –

Traces of Ancient Gods' Civilization



YouTube Link -

www.youtube.com...

Check out this youtube video in the link here 2 Oxen pull a weighted sled on mud (i'm prefer the high tech theory more but I thought I'd put this up here)

Also cattle do not dissipate their heat effectively and in desert conditions the resources needed to maintain them over a 100 miles might be impractical.

originally posted by: JamesTB
In this post I would like to make a case for Lost Ancient Technology being used in the production of the Obelisks in the Aswan Quarry.

The conventional wisdom states that the obelisks were pounded out with stone pounders but that’s not the case. I believe that the Ancient Egyptians inherited this site and tried to replicate the techniques and marks they found there by using the only tools that they possessed - stone pounders.

Who left all those pounding stones in the bottom of my high-tech hole in the ground?

Harte

originally posted by: Kandinsky
For anyone who's interested, I found information to back up the comments about livestock and feeding the pyramid builders of Giza Complex.


Clearly, I'm linking Giza here when the OP is about Aswan quarries.

Perfectly legitimate, I'd say.
After all, the granite in the Great Pyramid was quarried at Aswan.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

They couldn't have been placed there in mondern times couldn't they? Maybe to strengthen the argument of stone pounders. Of course this is speculation but your question can only be answered with speculation. Can you explain the vertical cuts in the temple of Luxor with widths less than 2/10th of a millimeter as mentioned in the video above with stone pounders or copper chisels?