Scientist explores connection between Shang Dynasty China and ancient Peruvian cultures...

Scientist explores connection between Shang Dynasty China and ancient Peruvian cultures

Similarities in ancient art and artifacts found in China and Peru have led some scholars to suggest an ancient link between the two cultures. Now a Chinese scientist will be undertaking genetic testing of remains of ancient Chinese people and Peruvians to determine whether South America was visited by Shang Dynasty people beginning around 1,000 BC.

The Shang Dynasty collapsed around 1046 BC. Scholars are saying Chinese people made contact with indigenous people of the Americas around then, long before the Europeans arrived in 1492 AD, or earlier when Vikings may have made landfall in the far north of North America around 1000 AD.

Chinese scholars say a link is worthwhile exploring because it’s possible to recognize Chinese influence and even characters in ancient geoglyphs, pottery, artifacts, carpets and garments of ancient American Mochica, Nazca, Paracas and Inca people, says an article in El Comercio....

I thought I'd pop in and post this interesting read. If true, then I think they should also check out the Olmecs in Central America as well, to me and my untrained eye there seems to be many more similarities between Chinese and Olmec art than Chinese and Peruvian. We'll just have to wait and see what they find genetically speaking.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were an ancient maritime connection.

a reply to: SLAYER69

When current Communist leadership influence on China's "experts" is gone 100% then we can have an open debate on evidence provided.

I see propaganda in the article.

The Olmecs appear to be black Africans. Specifically of the Mande group. They possibly came over with Nin.gish.zidda (Thoth) in 3113b.c.. There main function was as miners in search of precious metals. They are responsible for a lot of the megalithic structures found in Mesoamerica. They brought the design for the pyramid from Africa.

While the article may be propaganda, the Chinese link to South America will be understood in the future. Sorry I can't add more.

It's almost certain that cultural influences from the Shang arrived in the Americas, whether the Shang Dynasty/Shu people themselves made it over to the Olmecs or those influences were carried here through an intermediary, ocean going people remains to be seen. Jade alone may have been responsible for such ocean-going trade, as it was highly prized in the Shang Dynasty and abundant in Central America.

The Shang Dynasty was nearly 400 years, and much more advanced compared to other civilizations of their time, with extensive sea-trade among other cultures, such as proto-Polynesian and Oceana. We also know that N. Americans had contact and shared genetics with Easter Islanders (before Columbus), and EI is 1,200 miles from it's nearest neighbor.

In a previous post I wrote: The Olmec culture is broken into two phases by scholars, phase 1 appears entirely Amerindian mixed with some oceanic influence, while phase 2 shows a distinct Chinese art influence - although it may be more accurate to say the Olmec were manufacturing art objects out of jade for trade with the Shang Dynasty, and using their sea-faring skills along with their long-range, open-ocean double-hulled catamarans. Academics will say it's a stretch that the Olmecs or proto-Polynesians reached as far as China, or that the Olmecs even share a culture with the proto-Polynesians, but given the incredible similarity of jade objects found in the Olmec Phase 2 civilizations, it seems likely they did indeed have a trade relationship with China and it's always possible they brought back from the edges of the Shang Dynasty 'foreign' influences like Indian board games.

Some additional links:
Ancient Easter Islanders had contact with Native Americans genetic study shows
(abovetopsecret.com)

Did Ancient China Influence Olmec Mexico?
(academia.edu)

Previously posted with some discussion here

a reply to: SLAYER69

There are old sir names still around in Mexico that derive from asian decent. And if you look closely to people with Mayan bloodlines they look striking similar to what you would find in inuit, and Mongolian, or northern Chinese. I am sure it's the same for most of south American cultures.

a reply to: Blackmarketeer

I going to check out your links in a minute, but . . .

I thought that the new world jade stone was not the same as old world jade, even that it is technically not a true jade at all, but something similar (not certain really). Real jade or not, I would think that the difference in stone type would prove origin as well as possible trade connections.

a reply to: SLAYER69

S&F for sharing. It's super interesting, but wouldn't that imply they sailed around Africa also around 1000bc? And had trading with everyone in between. Maybe our world never was isolated cultures, we just seem to have lost the ability to travel for some hundred years before columbus.
But the other way would be too dangerous so much open water... And isn't there this guy, what's his name who travelled the Atlantic with his ancient egypt ships, The Ra I-III, or something? A ship model built way earlier and there were tobacco and coca found in mummies...
So if i would have to make a bet, i'd say maybe even before 1000 bc.

Ah, nice to see you posting again, Slayer! (The place has not been the same)

I too have been wondering if China or Indochina didn't make it over here years ago and influenced cultures and life here. I look forward to seeing what develops from the professor's curiosity.

originally posted by: Oannes
The Olmecs appear to be black Africans. Specifically of the Mande group. They possibly came over with Nin.gish.zidda (Thoth) in 3113b.c.. There main function was as miners in search of precious metals. They are responsible for a lot of the megalithic structures found in Mesoamerica. They brought the design for the pyramid from Africa.

No they did not the functions and design were very different, and they were not Mande that some were Black i'll not argue with that but the most likely origins were groups that migrated from Asia including Black Asians going way back..see Brazil finds
However this does not preclude the possibility of sporadic contacts from the old world including Africa and Africans.

originally posted by: Oannes
The Olmecs appear to be black Africans. Specifically of the Mande group. They possibly came over with Nin.gish.zidda (Thoth) in 3113b.c.. There main function was as miners in search of precious metals. They are responsible for a lot of the megalithic structures found in Mesoamerica. They brought the design for the pyramid from Africa.

Got any evidence of those claims?

Great to see you again, Slayer!

I watched a TV program years ago about Chinese trading vessels, up to 3,000 tons in weight!
The program suggested that the Chinese could have sailed to the Americas, a 3,000 ton vessel would have enough room for food and water stores.
Some of the ancient Egyptian TV programs also suggest the Egyptians had access to south American products via the trade routes from the eastern countries. Only suggestions, note!

a reply to: SLAYER69

Thanks for the great read Slayer!

It's about time you got back to writing... I missed it!

We need these threads more so now then ever as some of us have been reduced to writing and reading about flatulence.

S&F as usual.

Jude11

On my visit to peru in 2013, I could just feel that there is similarity between the 2 folks in question.
a reply to: SLAYER69

In fairness there is a number of scientists who disagree strongly that the Shang had anything to do with the Olmec, and they view it the same way as others do the concept of Afrocentrism. The contention is over the claim that the Olmec language or glyphs resemble Shang script.

Mystery Solved: Olmecs and Transoceanic Contact

You'll have to scroll a ways down to get to the part about the languages of the two civilizations. In short, they do not in fact resemble one another at all, and the scant few figures that do resemble each other mean entirely different things.

C. Cook, formerly Associate Professor of Chinese at Lehigh University replied to this discussion with this to say, among other things:

“obviously, the graphs/glyphs pulled out by Chen should be considered within the context of the entire “inscription.” This is impossible as the rest of the marks bear none but a few isolated similarities. In fact, the Olmec “script” may not represent language at all, but like the Naxi and other ur-scripts, be more a code for storytelling than an actual transcription of language. The Shang oracle bone script, on the other hand, is very advanced and unquestionably qualifies as belonging to a writing system.”

[snip]

While this is hardly an exhaustive linguistic analysis, experts in Chinese language and experts on the Olmecs conclude that the languages are wholly different. The few characters that have some similarity do not actually have any correlation with each other. Additionally, various artifacts and examples of writing from the two cultures do not appear to be related from casual investigation.

That leaves only the few Olmec jade artifacts that do have a strong Chinese resemblance, in style and facial expression. There is no connection by genetics or language, yet in all honesty if there had been contact that is where you would expect there to be some similarity. So far there hasn't been any conclusive proof of contact between the two, it's nearly as nebulous as the Afrocentric origin claim.

Here is the information on New World and Old World Jade.

The term jade is applied to two different types of rock, nephrite and jadeitite, that are made up of different silicate minerals.

During the Neolithic era, the key known sources of nephrite jade in China for utilitarian and ceremonial jade items were the now-depleted deposits in the Ningshao area in the Yangtze River Delta (Liangzhu culture, 3400–2250 B.C.E.) and in an area of the Liaoning province in Inner Mongolia (Hongshan culture 4700–2200 B.C.E.). Jade was used to create many utilitarian and ceremonial objects, ranging from indoor decorative items to jade burial suits. It was considered the "imperial gem."

All the jadeite in Mesoamerica, used by the Olmec, Maya, and all other cultures since about 3000 B.C.E., comes from the Motagua river valley in Guatemala, and it was one of the most valuable objects in those cultures.


Jadeitite—with its bright emerald-green, pink, lavender, orange, and brown colors—was imported from Burma to China only after about 1800. The vivid green variety became known as Feicui (翡翠) or Kingfisher (feathers) Jade. It quickly replaced nephrite as the imperial variety of jade.

Jade

Nephrite jade is the ancient Chinese jade and jadeitite jade is the ancient New World jade and wasn't used in China until after 1800. So unless they find nephrite jade artifacts in Meso America that are dated from the period in question, this is all coincidental.

Personally I find the artistic similarities quite different and no real connection to any possible prehistoric contact, esp. if the context of cultural mythical origins are considered.

a reply to: Blackmarketeer

As mentioned before, the origin for most of Childress’ theories about contact with Africa is the late Ivan Van Sertima, who was most famous for his views claiming that Africans were the basis for all of the world’s civilizations and especially the view that the Olmecs had contact with them. In his view, Africans made a number of journeys to the Americas long before Columbus. To his credit, he was in charge of African Studies at Rutgers, however his views of Africans in Central America and such were never taken very seriously among actual Mesoamerican scholars. It seems that he was probably the pioneer of this theory and probably the loudest voice in the argument for African contact with the Olmecs. - See more at: ancientaliensdebunked.com...

Actually Vans Sertima made no such claims that the Olmecs were an African product, as a matter of fact he took the time to explain, that Meso-America did not spring from an Egyptian heaven

THE TRUTH: As far back as 1976, I made my position on this matter very clear. I never said that Africans created or founded American civilization. I said they made contact and all significant contact between two peoples lead to influences. "I think it is necessary to make it clear - since partisan and ethnocentric scholarship seems to be the order of the day - that the emergence of the Negroid face, which the archeological and cultural data overwhelmingly confirm, in no way presupposes the lack of a native originality, the absence of other influences or the automatic eclipse of other faces"-p. 147 of "They Came Before Columbus." See also Journal of African Civilizations, Vol 8, No. 2, 1986 "I cannot subscribe to the notion that civilization suddenly dropped onto the American earth from the Egyptian heaven."

Reply to My Critics

by Ivan Van Sertima

he argued for contact and influence based off similarity nor was he the first to do so, I think Matthew Sterling and others who discovered or excavated the heads said they looked African ,others that influenced and prefigured Van Sertima in this were Professor Leo Wiener, R. A Jairazbhoy and count Alexander Von Wuthenau who collected figurines from all over Mexico now housed in Museum after his passing.
As far as him and Clyde Winters they parted professional ways very early.
Now is what he proposed about contacts between Egyptians and Meso-Americans correct?? apparently not there are no genetic evidence to support that yet, that science was not yet quite developed back when they wrote,so alot was based off cranial evidence to which he leaned on Andrzej Wiercinski.

Andrzej Wiercinski claims that some of the Olmecs were of African origin.[13] He supports this claim with cranial evidence from two Mesoamerican sites: Tlatilco and Cerro de las Mesas. Tlatilco is a site in the Valley of Mexico. Although outside the Olmec heartland, Olmec influences appear in the architectural record. The crania were from the Pre-Classic period, contemporary with the Olmec. Cerro de las Mesa is within the Olmec heartland, although according to Wiercinski, "the series . . . is dated on the Classic period."[14] The Classic period is generally defined to start around AD 250, or 600 years after the end of the Olmec culture.
Wiki sourced for the quote but it's good have it in my book.^^ as is.
en.wikipedia.org...

Olmec From Tres Zapotes and an African.
But I can see how one can reach conclusions by not taking polytopcity into account:

I hate this idea that the vikings 'may' have made landfall in the Americas around 1000AD. They absolutely, verifiably did. We have at least one of their settlements in the archaeological record, at L'anse aux Meadows on the Northern Peninsula of Newfoundland. In Maine, a viking coin was found at the remains of a Native American settlement, indicating some level of interaction. I read recently that there's an excavation underway on another suspected viking settlement farther north, and that tell-tale spindle whorls have been found, but I'm vague on the details and have to pop out of the house shortly and don't have time to research.

originally posted by: Monger
I hate this idea that the vikings 'may' have made landfall in the Americas around 1000AD. They absolutely, verifiably did. We have at least one of their settlements in the archaeological record, at L'anse aux Meadows on the Northern Peninsula of Newfoundland. In Maine, a viking coin was found at the remains of a Native American settlement, indicating some level of interaction. I read recently that there's an excavation underway on another suspected viking settlement farther north, and that tell-tale spindle whorls have been found, but I'm vague on the details and have to pop out of the house shortly and don't have time to research.

Absolutely, though the Maine penny was likely carried south in native trade, and not through a Norse presence there.
(I'm back to LAM this summer!)
...and Slayer, thanks for the heads-up. It will be interesting to see what DNA can add to the story.

a reply to: SLAYER69

I'm willing to believe that this is true. I eagerly await the results of the tests to see if it is though. I'm excited in the meantime though. Chinese history is so poorly understood in the west and it is just as rich and exciting as our history (heck something like 7 of the 10 bloodiest wars in history involve the Chinese).