Chuches and "Cliques"....Illuminati types?

The Church and the NWO

As a devout Christian, and not the "stereotype", i have recently come accross what I am finding common. I joined a prayer group, called a men's morning prayer group. I am the youngest, at mid 30's . Although I attended regularly, it seems I never fit in, and subsiquently left. I have strong views on issues, and stand firm on them. Here's the point. Churches are becoming corporations. Recently I found out the people in this "group" were actually involved with "incorporating" the church. Since my ":views" didn't "match", and that i used to be Jewish, this group did what they could to "unwelcome" me. I refered to them as the "Majestic12"
. There happened to be 12 in this group ....
This is commonplace now in the church, and Theological reserach is quite interesting.

Welcome to ATS. We have an excellent search option here, use at least 2 "key" words. Here is some info from the archives:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Later.

Originally posted by Maple 22
As a devout Christian, and not the "stereotype", i have recently come accross what I am finding common. I joined a prayer group, called a men's morning prayer group.

I don't understand this kind of exclusion either. What do men say that women should not hear? After all, shouldn't we be learning to break down the communication barrier? Why make the other half of the church unnecessarily curious about possible secrets? Sorry, I can't picture Jesus saying, "Lemme meet with just the guys for a moment on this one..."

Originally posted by Maple 22
I am the youngest, at mid 30's . Although I attended regularly, it seems I never fit in, and subsiquently left. I have strong views on issues, and stand firm on them. Here's the point. Churches are becoming corporations. Recently I found out the people in this "group" were actually involved with "incorporating" the church.

This sounds weird... Can you expand?

Originally posted by Maple 22
Since my ":views" didn't "match", and that i used to be Jewish, this group did what they could to "unwelcome" me. I refered to them as the "Majestic12"
. There happened to be 12 in this group ....
This is commonplace now in the church, and Theological reserach is quite interesting.

Totally sucks, sorry to hear this happened. Continue to search for a church home. I pray it's not typical.

God be with you.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Maple 22
I am the youngest, at mid 30's . Although I attended regularly, it seems I never fit in, and subsiquently left. I have strong views on issues, and stand firm on them. Here's the point. Churches are becoming corporations. Recently I found out the people in this "group" were actually involved with "incorporating" the church.

This sounds weird... Can you expand?

A large number of religious organizations (churches, synagogues, etc.) are beginning to incorporate. The reasons for doing this are not conspiratorial: it's just that, in the legal sense, corporations are entities with rights and duties, and incorporating an organization (in effect making it a "person") lessens the liability of individual interest holders in the organization.

For example, if your church is not incorporated, and some kids were playing football in your church parking lot and broke some bones, your pastor could be sued, as well as the individual members of the church board, and even the congregation who held membership in the church. If the church was incorporated, only the church itself could be sued, not its individual stakeholders.

Originally posted by saint4God

I don't understand this kind of exclusion either. What do men say that women should not hear? After all, shouldn't we be learning to break down the communication barrier? Why make the other half of the church unnecessarily curious about possible secrets? Sorry, I can't picture Jesus saying, "Lemme meet with just the guys for a moment on this one..."

Most churches have male study groups as well as female ones. As for your last comment, the Scriptures are full of examples where Jesus called his disciples aside from the mob to talk with them privately. He even warned them about "casting pearls before swine".

But this latter injunction has nothing to do with male/female study groups; they're just something that have always existed.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Most churches have male study groups as well as female ones.

Juxtapositioning, don't know what the ladies have to say that the men shouldn't hear. It's not a medical discussion so it's just creating social barriers.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
As for your last comment, the Scriptures are full of examples where Jesus called his disciples aside from the mob to talk with them privately.

It's hard to talk when there's a mob, I can see why he pulled them aside.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
He even warned them about "casting pearls before swine".

I think this was more about not wasting time with those who refuse to hear anything other than their own voice rather than maintaining secrets. Just my perspective.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
But this latter injunction has nothing to do with male/female study groups; they're just something that have always existed.

I no longer accept the 'it's the way it's always been done' explanation. These things like this need to be reviewed on a regular basis.

I see where you're coming from Masonic Light, please don't think I'm being stubborn. I just happen to disagree on this point and am looking for a convincing argument in order to change.

Originally posted by saint4God

Juxtapositioning, don't know what the ladies have to say that the men shouldn't hear. It's not a medical discussion so it's just creating social barriers.

I guess it all comes down to personal preference. But, at least in my opinion, guys need time for guy stuff and ladies need time for lady stuff.

I think this was more about not wasting time with those who refuse to hear anything other than their own voice rather than maintaining secrets. Just my perspective.

Maybe. But he ended the sentence with "lest they turn on you and rend you."

But again, at least as far as Bible study goes, it's just up to the individual. Male bonding and female bonding have as much to do with it as theology, I would guess.

Masonic, I don't think Maple 22 made any reference to any kind of conspiracy. He was just sharing a valuable observation that he made and seemed to express his concerns about Christian organisations -and possibly the Church as a whole- getting "legal" and incorporate.

corporations are entities with rights and duties

If there is a conspiracy here, than that's the one! Corporations have NO rights and duties at all... there are just plain theorical entities created as "social purpose" behind the activities of production and distribution in the industry. These are just an identity without a body. Where the big problem is it's that in North America, a twisted Kantic principle makes businesses and NGO's have rights that are equal to the rights of REAL physical persons, which means that if some employees are victims of discrimination, psychological arrasment and verbal violence, as an example, in many cases it's not the supervisor himself who's gonna be sued for his direspect of the person's rights, but the company he works for.

This is, to put Masonic's terms into clearer terms, a legal cover, or an immunity, for some specific persons that work inside the organisation (basic wage employees never benefit from this cover by the way). It's the same thing here in Canada with the c-36 bill who gives special protection and immunity to all foreign businessmen and politicians as what they call a "counter-terrorist" measure.

AS for Christian organisations... well nothing tells me there's a conspiracy there, but still it's a perversion. It separates the Church from its follower by instating it a "moral person" with its own legal identity, rather than a social institution as it ever was. In a symbolic way, this is stealing the Church from the people that made it alive.

Originally posted by Echtelion


If there is a conspiracy here, than that's the one! Corporations have NO rights and duties at all... there are just plain theorical entities created as "social purpose" behind the activities of production and distribution in the industry. These are just an identity without a body. Where the big problem is it's that in North America, a twisted Kantic principle makes businesses and NGO's have rights that are equal to the rights of REAL physical persons, which means that if some employees are victims of discrimination, psychological arrasment and verbal violence, as an example, in many cases it's not the supervisor himself who's gonna be sued for his direspect of the person's rights, but the company he works for.

I agree that turning corporations into persons is not a good thing, per se. However, this is not a Kantian principle...actually, it's extremely anti-Kantian. Kant says that only rational beings can be persons, and therefore only rational beings can have rights and duties. Since corporations are not rational beings, then, according to Kantian ethics, they are not persons and can have neither duties nor rights.

Note that when I briefly reviewed the legalese concerning corporations above, I was merely pointing out the legal reasons that entities incorporate; I was not necessarily saying that I agreed with it.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I guess it all comes down to personal preference. But, at least in my opinion, guys need time for guy stuff and ladies need time for lady stuff.

LOL! That's the most sensible answer I've heard to my anti-exclusion argument yet! I applaud your perspective. Not saying I agree because it seems traditional in thinking, but can see how a good number of people feel this way. Kudos also because whenever we have exchange, I feel like I'm getting somewhere.

[edit on 21-12-2004 by saint4God]

Sorry but you are not holy/pure enough to be part of the greatness belonging to the mighty Majestic12.



Jews, Blacks, Asians, Gays and most Democrats will always face hardships while trying to be accepted into jesusland.

Originally posted by syntaxer
Jews, Blacks, Asians, Gays and most Democrats

will always face hardships while trying to be accepted into jesusland.

Uhm...what? How is one person sinning different than another?

Originally posted by Maple 22
The Church and the NWO

Since my ":views" didn't "match", and that i used to be Jewish, this group did what they could to "unwelcome" me.

I don't know if there is any NWO connections here, but it seems to be an all to common happening among religious groups. IMHO, too often Christians find themselves behaving in a very un-Christianlike manner. To their detriment and the detriment of the religion they believe. I'm sure it has resulted in many people leaving the church.

I hope you find another group where you can pursue your studies.

Not to threadjack but I had an experience just a month ago a little bit like that.

I was attending an independent Baptist church. They go by the King James Bible, which was a major selling point with me, if you will.

I got some strange looks when I mentioned Christian books I was reading. Christian books! Same thing with Chick tracts. I read quite a lot and I've ordered lots of books from Chick Publications, and my mother has ordered books from Chick for me for my birthday way back in February 2004.

On top of that, the pastor kept referring to Bush as a "man of character." Let's just say that if I was drinking anything whenever he said that, I would have been spewing it through my nose!

There were other issues too that I'm not going to bring up right now. The long and short of it is, he and his wife came to my place, and I went and woke my husband up so he'd know what was going on, I told the pastor Bush was an evil man, and he got on me for getting stuff "off that computer." Then he proceeded to do the usual neo-con rant about liberals...and didn't even listen when I tried to explain I voted for Peroutka, who is anything BUT a liberal! He accused me of being un-Christian.

Throughout this "conversation" he kept asking me what about my membership, as I had been baptized only a month before. Finally I said I don't know and he said he was going to go ahead and take my name off the membership rolls. I was getting agitated, and once a month I have a bit of an anxiety attack (hormones), and it was That Time.

You know, I don't feel bitter or anything really, just sad and disappointed. They've bought into the neo-con agenda and I'd go so far as to say they're brainwashed. My former pastor is convinced we're in Iraq hunting down terrorists! Obviously he believes the official story and Bush is his hero the way he goes on about it.

My husband says they need to stop worshiping Bush and wake up and find out what's really going on.

Not one member of that church has called me except for one person--and that's because I got something at the McDonald's she works at and gave her my number. Oh well. We plan on moving to another state anyhow, so maybe I can find a church there that doesn't sell out. Preferably Independent Baptist.

Originally posted by intrepid
Welcome to ATS. We have an excellent search option here, use at least 2 "key" words. Here is some info from the archives:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Later.

It may be that you are one of the million and something more universal that a Christian.