Tracers to mark a low magazine.. Who dun it?

a reply to: mindseye1609

In that scenario, how do you propose to get rounds close enough to him to make him drop behind cover? He's got a rifle and a solid position. You have a handgun and cover.

And for what it's worth: the higher ammo capacity wasn't the only reason most agencies transitioned to semi-autos. There were two big shootouts where revolver reloads were cited as fatal contributing factors in officer/agent deaths, and some significant improvement in ammo all around the same time frame.

a reply to: mindseye1609

I will recommend you purchase open top mag holders that you can clip onto a belt. There is no faster way of carrying magazines.

At night keep your pistol loaded, safety off, and spare magazine on the night stand with easily accessible loaded mags in case stuff happens.

Go out to a range, preferably out door. Run 100 yards come to your firing position, do as many push ups as you can, then draw weapon fast, get on target, fire till empty, reload, do over all while shooting for smaller and smaller time frames. Do a couple of familiarization drills to start off...do them slowly.

Do that drill as much as you can. Its sole purpose is to get your heart pumping fast, instill a sense of urgency, and simulate combat stress.

Another drill you can use is to do the same as above, only loading one round in your firearm. Then putting between 1-3 rounds in you reload mags and mix them up. That way you can surprise yourself and you can train faster reloads. Get a buddy to help you.

a reply to: Shamrock6

Range is the biggest factor into what I could do. Within 100 yards I'm turnin up the heat pretty good. I can make some noise in a pretty tight group even out to there. Past 100 yards any substantial distance... I'm lookin for a hole to crawl into lol.

Within 40 yards or so I'm pretty confident in my ability to stop a threat. Not to many people gonna go all lone sniper at 40 yards tho.

And projectvxn I have an open top mag holder. It's a #ty leather double one tho I'm gonna get a hidden hybrid to match my iwb holster eventually tho. I've done a few of the redline drills that instructor zero teaches. I want to eventually get them all into rotation regularly. He's got a suffocation drill that really gets the adrenaline pumping I guess. Makes reloading a mother. Combine that with random snap caps put in by uour buddy and you got some good training.

a reply to: mindseye1609

You missed my point: you have a handgun and you're behind cover. He has a rifle and also has cover. He is actively shooting people. So how do you plan to get rounds close enough to him to force him to utilize cover without leaving your own cover to do so?

That's my point man. You're not a cop, you have no duty to engage a threat that has fire superiority. Why would you roll out and start trying to gun it out with a guy 100 yards away, who also has cover and a rifle, when you've got decent cover as it is? He's going to come up shooting because now you've let him know where you're at, and that you're armed which makes you an immediate threat. And that's presuming he doesn't see you trying to line up a shot to begin with.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: mindseye1609

You missed my point: you have a handgun and you're behind cover. He has a rifle and also has cover. He is actively shooting people. So how do you plan to get rounds close enough to him to force him to utilize cover without leaving your own cover to do so?

That's my point man. You're not a cop, you have no duty to engage a threat that has fire superiority. Why would you roll out and start trying to gun it out with a guy 100 yards away, who also has cover and a rifle, when you've got decent cover as it is? He's going to come up shooting because now you've let him know where you're at, and that you're armed which makes you an immediate threat. And that's presuming he doesn't see you trying to line up a shot to begin with.

Ha...yep...that situation would be a death wish. The second you pop up and start firing a pistol at me from 100 or more yards away and I have a rifle, I will take careful aim, knowing you won't hit anywhere close to me, and let one shot go....that should do it.

a reply to: Shamrock6

im not trying to be a cop. Defending yourself is far from being a cop. Luckily in my state they are smart enough to know a mandatory retreat law is ridiculous. If retreating is the best option then for sure retreat. I've said this same thing to many posters before but of retreating isn't an option, and let's shorten the range up to say 15 yards, what then?

Your getting way to carried away with needing to retreat, if retreating is the smartest move... Then retreat... But sometimes stopping the threat other ways are required, and that includes killing the threat. Why even carry if your not going to watch out for more then yourself? I understand in some states the laws are shady as can be about engaging other people's threats but in mine and many other states that's not the case. I'm not trying to justify cowboy actions but there is no reason to hamstring yourself either.

We can hypothetical all day and night and you can keep saying "dude your not a cop" all you want but that doesn't change the fact that scenarios where your require to run through all your ammo and do a very fast reload could present themselves in the real world.. and they have. Not that often but the sight that shal not be named has many many videos of concealed carry defensive shootings and a handful of them run through and mag and reload during combat.. Having the edge here was the original intention of the OP.


Also if your using basics ledge style cover like Say... A second story window sill... From 100 yards I can easily shoot a 4-5 foot group rapidly... It's gonna take a hardened operator to keep there eye in the glass when 124 grain is pinging all around them only inches away. At 100 yards I'm about 10% on a paper plate.. Now if we talking middle eastern style kill hole... A pistol isn't gonna do me any good from 25 yards really unless I'm crazy lucky. The variables really Are endless.

Let's just take it to something that's proven and real and on video.. No more what ifs..



If I'm the fatal point of a fatal funnel slow reloads are not gonna cut it, some sort of indicator in this situation that your getting low would be pretty awesome Imo.

a reply to: mindseye1609

You cited the Texas shooting, not me. I ran with your hypothetical, not mine. Now you're changing the scenario, and I'm not chasing it all over the map.

Yea, defend yourself. Your attitude sounds a lot less like "I'm going to defend myself" and a lot more like "the law says I can stand here and trade shots with you and by God im gonna do it!"

I have yet to come up with a plausible scenario in which you, as a civilian, would need to stand there and run through multiple mags because you just can't seem to break contact and have no means to escape.

Eta: just saw the video. It's a great example of the close range and how quick the assailants booked it when the first couple shots rang out. Good example how short a fight usually is, even against multiple assailants.

originally posted by: mindseye1609
a reply to: Shamrock6

im not trying to be a cop. Defending yourself is far from being a cop. Luckily in my state they are smart enough to know a mandatory retreat law is ridiculous. If retreating is the best option then for sure retreat. I've said this same thing to many posters before but of retreating isn't an option, and let's shorten the range up to say 15 yards, what then?

Your getting way to carried away with needing to retreat, if retreating is the smartest move... Then retreat... But sometimes stopping the threat other ways are required, and that includes killing the threat. Why even carry if your not going to watch out for more then yourself? I understand in some states the laws are shady as can be about engaging other people's threats but in mine and many other states that's not the case. I'm not trying to justify cowboy actions but there is no reason to hamstring yourself either.

We can hypothetical all day and night and you can keep saying "dude your not a cop" all you want but that doesn't change the fact that scenarios where your require to run through all your ammo and do a very fast reload could present themselves in the real world.. and they have. Not that often but the sight that shal not be named has many many videos of concealed carry defensive shootings and a handful of them run through and mag and reload during combat.. Having the edge here was the original intention of the OP.


Also if your using basics ledge style cover like Say... A second story window sill... From 100 yards I can easily shoot a 4-5 foot group rapidly... It's gonna take a hardened operator to keep there eye in the glass when 124 grain is pinging all around them only inches away. At 100 yards I'm about 10% on a paper plate.. Now if we talking middle eastern style kill hole... A pistol isn't gonna do me any good from 25 yards really unless I'm crazy lucky. The variables really Are endless.

Let's just take it to something that's proven and real and on video.. No more what ifs..

If I'm the fatal point of a fatal funnel slow reloads are not gonna cut it, some sort of indicator in this situation that your getting low would be pretty awesome Imo.

Youre within 10% of a paper plate at 100 yds with a pistol at a range.

Enjoy the adrenaline rush when someone is firing back and you lose all feeling in your fingertips.

Please post a video of you hitting a paper plate at 100 yards multiple times in succession with a pistol too....

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: schuyler
During WW II our fighter pilots used tracers as the last few rounds in a "magazine" (which is where the phrase "Gave him the whole 9 yards" comes from as that's how long the clip was). So the enemy was instantly aware when you ran out of ammo. Not such a hot idea, IMO.

Tracers were put in every few rounds throughout the magazines for targeting assistance, not to indicate a spent magazine which can't be swapped out in flight anyway.

Yes, they were, but they were ALSO put in to indicate a spent magazine. It's possible to do both, you know. And BTW, the tracers were inaccurate and did not follow the same path as a normal bullet and so they really did not give very good "targeting assistance" at all.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe


Ha...yep...that situation would be a death wish. The second you pop up and start firing a pistol at me from 100 or more yards away and I have a rifle, I will take careful aim, knowing you won't hit anywhere close to me, and let one shot go....that should do it.

Sorry to be the one guy who's contradictory but I have no trouble hitting a man-size target at 150 yards with a handgun as long as I have something to brace against.

Obviously the rifle shooter has a huge advantage but don't dismiss the handgun so easily.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

No out of ten rounds Il hit it on average once. I can't say that I can think of a time that I hit it twice in a row either, I would of been pretty excited about that lol.

And I'm not trying to says "zomg I'm the best i don't care if someone walks in with a man portable mini gun at 600 yards Il get him with my pistol" I'm just simply stating that if retreat isn't the best option I feel confident in my abilities to at least put up a hell of a fight.

And that adrenaline rush is exactly why I was trying to raise the topic of some sort of signal round to let you know you were about to run out.

Maybe some kind of tuned metal tab that PINGS off the magazine piece the rounds rest on... Probably asking for jams..

Hmm maybe the new roller mags can come up with something?

Try a nonstandard round in the stack.

If you are using 165gr HP, use a 50gr +p SCHP rather than a tracer. Different recoil and flare color would serve as an indicator of round count.

a reply to: 200Plus

That's what I'm going to start messing around with to see what I can figure out. I generally run 147 or 124 grain hollow points. A few different brands get rotated around but for the most part I shoot the best with the generic Winchester Train and Defend line. Just a plain Jane hollow point really with a nice heavy hunk o lead on the back end.

I'm thinking either a 165 low powder 3 gun round or like you said one of the very very light rounds. 124 grain golden Sabres even differ a bit from my 147 winchesters so I might just try putting 2 of them near the bottom of the magazine. They make a totally different sound and pop a lot different so hopefully 2 of those are obvious enough but subtle enough at the same time without sacraficing damage.

a reply to: Shamrock6

Lucky for him those vatos didn't want to out too much if a fight. Like I said before I'm not counting on retreat and luck. No one shot stop. No double tap luck.. If I got guys pouring in my front door.... I'm gonna pour lead back lol.

Like I mentioned above I'm gonna start messing around with using noticeably different rounds and see how that works out.

a reply to: mindseye1609

Don't count on it, no. But don't spend all your time preparing for some wild im gonna go out in a pile of brass scenario and stray too far from your fundamentals, either.

To get back to your original question: I've never used any method to know when it's time to reload. The only reason I ever had tracers at all was for directing fire, and I can only recall using "that mag" twice, despite three combat tours. The best time to reload will always, always, always be "as soon as you can safely do so." You will have plenty to worry in a combat situation and trying to rely on a tracer (pro-tip: they don't always work and you can't always see them when they do work) or feeling a lower grain round going off is going to be a big ask, especially for somebody on their first time out (not an insult at all, but a gunfight is like being pregnant: you either have or you haven't, there's no in between).

And I would still urge caution on the idea of using suppressive fire on a threat. A few rounds, sure. But dumping an entire mag is asking for problems down the road. The "you're not a cop" thing isn't a knock against you, but a simple fact: a civilian shooter is going to be judged differently.

But, as we have both said, there's two sides to every coin. The flip side here is it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

I would prefer to have a weapon with a decent capacity just for the feel good factor. However my experience in concealed carry is from N Ireland during the Troubles. The main threat was close quarter assassination attempt from Republican terrorists. They would usually be heavily armed and in force.

Our issued weapon was a Walther P5C 8-shot 9mm. The RUC (police) carried Ruger Speed Six revolvers or Walther PP. I can only think of 1 time when one of our lads had to reload during an attempted murder. He was attacked by an IRA unit armed with 2 AKs and a pistol. He killed one and fought the rest off. He reloaded once and only used half the rounds in the second 8 round mag. He had taken a number of hits in the legs but kept on fighting. There are no documented cases I can remember where mag capacity being the deciding factor in the conflict.

That being said most of the boys who were authorised to carry personally owned pistols carried high capacity models. Lots of Glocks and such. It was a bit annoying because if you lived in a high threat area like I did you were issued the P5C. If you were in a lower threat area you weren't issued a weapon but you could get a licence from the police and buy your own. Hence the boys in most danger had less fire power!

a reply to: PaddyInf

Man Northern Ireland needs to be studied more I reckon. I had a teacher who grew up in the middle of all that and she said it was unreal. She said It felt like overnight it went from happy days to warzone.

Could be a good study as to what to do if in America somethin similar were to pop off. There's several groups poised for violence here but so far everything's held steady.. I wonder what the factors in Ireland were when it all went bad... I know I got my study topic for the next good bit

And You can't really judge a firefight based on how many rounds and reloads were done really because you use lower capacity guns different. The same firefight would of probably played out differently If the officers new they had 14 in the mag. They mighta of used the same amount of magazines but used more ammo or may never of needed to reload. Having more sometimes mean you use more too. Knowing you have 14 might get you to shoot faster then you would if you had say a Walter with 8

a reply to: mindseye1609

Jesus Christ Ireland is like the Middle East of Europe... They've rarely had a peaceful moment. She grew up in the post ww2 era im assuming and got to see the resurgence to violence in the 60's and 70's.

No wonder red heads are so intense. It's years of the hardcore genetics winning out.

a reply to: mindseye1609

I think one significant factor in the number of shots fired in Ulster during contacts was the way we were constantly drilled to fire only as many shots as necessary. We ended up in court after every shooting and had to justify EVERY single shot fired. Several soldiers got in a lot of trouble and some did time because they could not justify a single shot following a contact. It was always difficult worrying about ending up in court trying to account for your actions after a life or death situation when someone was trying to kill you.

As public servants we need to be held to a higher standard. In the US it seems that a cop can just pump rounds into someone as long as there are rounds left in the magazine. I personally feel there needs to be more accountability. However I wouldn't wish anyone to have to go through the anguish we had to following shootings.

You sound like a terribly uneducated gun owner, youre the reason why the Dems. are trying to take away are guns