Shamanism, The Once Universal Spirituality

originally posted by: masqua
While there is an extremely long history (including prehistory) associated with ingestion of certain hallucinogens to what we understand as shamanism, it should also be understood that such practices are not the only shamanistic methods used.

To only concentrate on just one aspect of shamanism and to ignore, for instance, the 'Spirit Journey' of Native American culture, is rather like tunnel vision. I blame the current popularity and political ramifications involved in recreational drug use for that focus in this thread.

For instance, there’s Trance Dancing and also further evidence of shamanism in prehistoric art itself.

Even if plants were not used, other methods were used in an effort to alter consciousness.

I recognized this in my OP. But the methods ALWAYS involve attempting to alter consciousness. Sometimes they try to alter their consciousness without ingesting anything. Altering consciousness is fundamental, however. Ingesting certain things just happens to be a very easy way to alter consciousness.

originally posted by: TheJourney
Ingesting certain things just happens to be a very easy way to alter consciousness.

And, as with all things quick and easy, it is mainly about finding pleasure and has little to do with 'understanding' anything. There are no fast lanes to gaining knowledge.

originally posted by: masqua

originally posted by: TheJourney
Ingesting certain things just happens to be a very easy way to alter consciousness.

And, as with all things quick and easy, it is mainly about finding pleasure and has little to do with 'understanding' anything. There are no fast lanes to gaining knowledge.

If you think visionary plants are about simple pleasure seeking, it's safe to say you have little/no experience with them. That is certainly not what they are for. You look elsewhere if that's what you're seeking.

originally posted by: TheJourney
I recognized this in my OP. But the methods ALWAYS involve attempting to alter consciousness. Sometimes they try to alter their consciousness without ingesting anything. Altering consciousness is fundamental, however. Ingesting certain things just happens to be a very easy way to alter consciousness.

It would be better to say that altering one's fixed points of view - e.g., materialism and its requirement to objectify everything - would be necessary. Consciousness itself or awareness cannot be altered - it is prior to all conditionality. However, one's belief systems due to awareness being associated with certain points-of-view, necessarily must be released - or altered, as you say.

Understanding that there is no difference within consciousness in terms of what is apparently inner and outer is fundamental. Once we recognize that everything we ever experience is in consciousness (whether apparently inner or outer), all limited points-of-view can be relaxed and released. This alters everything relative to life altogether, and allows awareness to be open to the reality-truth of our situation here.

originally posted by: bb23108

originally posted by: TheJourney
I recognized this in my OP. But the methods ALWAYS involve attempting to alter consciousness. Sometimes they try to alter their consciousness without ingesting anything. Altering consciousness is fundamental, however. Ingesting certain things just happens to be a very easy way to alter consciousness.

It would be better to say that altering one's fixed points of view - e.g., materialism and its requirement to objectify everything - would be necessary. Consciousness itself or awareness cannot be altered - it is prior to all conditionality. However, one's belief systems due to awareness being associated with certain points-of-view, necessarily must be released - or altered, as you say.

Understanding that there is no difference within consciousness in terms of what is apparently inner and outer is fundamental. Once we recognize that everything we ever experience is in consciousness (whether apparently inner or outer), all limited points-of-view can be relaxed and released. This alters everything relative to life altogether, and allows awareness to be open to the reality-truth of our situation here.

When you go into a trance state, you're not altering your belief system. Belief has nothing to do with it. Similarly, when you consume a visionary plant, what changes isn't your belief system. It's your consciousness. If you want to phrase it differently, have at it, but 'changing your belief system' is certainly not an accurate one.

originally posted by: TheJourney
When you go into a trance state, you're not altering your belief system. Belief has nothing to do with it. Similarly, when you consume a visionary plant, what changes isn't your belief system. It's your consciousness. If you want to phrase it differently, have at it, but 'changing your belief system' is certainly not an accurate one.

Right, belief has nothing to do with it. But that is a real change from one's usual disposition of believing in the objective nature of the world, etc. So one's usual belief system (point-of-view) is released in such states, and this alters one's usual perceptions, etc.

However, one's actual awareness does not change - only the content it is witnessing has changed. Granted, this may give one a sense of expansion beyond one's usual point-of-view, but awareness is already beyond all points-of-view. This is what must be fundamentally recognized - not just a new set of perceptual experiences creating yet another set of limited points-of-view.

originally posted by: bb23108

originally posted by: TheJourney
When you go into a trance state, you're not altering your belief system. Belief has nothing to do with it. Similarly, when you consume a visionary plant, what changes isn't your belief system. It's your consciousness. If you want to phrase it differently, have at it, but 'changing your belief system' is certainly not an accurate one.

Right, belief has nothing to do with it. But that is a real change from one's usual disposition of believing in the objective nature of the world, etc. So one's usual belief system (point-of-view) is released in such states, and this alters one's usual perceptions, etc.

However, one's actual awareness does not change - only the content it is witnessing has changed. Granted, this may give one a sense of expansion beyond one's usual point-of-view, but awareness is already beyond all points-of-view.

I understand what you're getting at. That there is a changeless awareness/consciousness/mind, which isn't and cannot be altered. And I really agree with this. It's really just a deficiency of language, though. Altering consciousness, I think, is a perfectly legitimate way of phrasing it. But there is still that 'observer' which can never be altered. That just has to have a special name, it simply is something different than the consciousness I'm referring to. It's the I AM. I don't think 'altering consciousness' has to be abolished as a phrase in light of the observer. Just understood as being continuously and equally present regardless of what changes occur to consciousness, understanding consciousness here has a 'lower' meaning than the changeless awareness.

a reply to: masqua

Yoga, meditation, and entheogens make a potent combination. Especially combined with the occasional pilgrimage to nature, which urban shamans might need.

The concrete jungle of industrialized society can be a challenging, poisonous environment for shamans. Potency is needed by some to overcome this.

👣

originally posted by: TheJourney

I understand what you're getting at. That there is a changeless awareness/consciousness/mind, which isn't and cannot be altered. And I really agree with this. It's really just a deficiency of language, though. Altering consciousness, I think, is a perfectly legitimate way of phrasing it. But there is still that 'observer' which can never be altered. That just has to have a special name, it simply is something different than the consciousness I'm referring to. It's the I AM. I don't think 'altering consciousness' has to be abolished as a phrase in light of the observer. Just understood as being continuously and equally present regardless of what changes occur to consciousness, understanding consciousness here has a 'lower' meaning than the changeless awareness.

Yes, I figured we were going to need to define terms better. The observer function is a brain-mind function, and as such is limited because it tends to abstract from objects whether inner or outer. It is what many spiritual traditions teach as that which transcends conditions. However, it is limited as it abstracts from all conditions, life itself, and so is another (albeit very subtle) form of limited egoity.

I equate Consciousness as another name for the Unqualifed Reality in which everything appears and is a modification of. Awareness is consciousness, but awareness has apparently identified with the point-of-view making function of attention apparently in the body-mind.

What we suffer is this identification of awareness with the mechanism of attention - which endlessly creates the illusion of a separate self via moment to moment point-of-view making. One must surrender to Reality or self-aware Consciousness, which is Being-Light-Energy, to recognize our true condition beyond all points-of-view.

Everything else is just shifting points-of-view through more and more experiences high and low, and is no less deluding than any other belief system based on conditional experience.

Various attempts to release awareness from this root mechanism of attention without fully surrendering to Reality itself, has resulted in madness because such release is not truly possible without Reality revealing itself as the actual process.

a reply to: TatTvamAsi

Bruce Parry taking part in shamanic ritual

a reply to: woodwardjnr
When clicking on the video, it says "The uploader has not made this video available in your country." I am in the United States.

a reply to: Kester

Do you have any evidence to back up these extraordinary claims? Because right now it seems like a lot of conjecture and wishful thinking. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

originally posted by: _damon
a reply to: TheJourney

Our society is in many ways progressing.

To me this like a stain in the op. Progressing? It would be called progress by your average joe, surely but here?.. You dont call such society or human civilization, that has become so depraved and illusory that their demise is within a few decades, as "progressing". Something born out of corrupted, false and rotten foundations cant in any way survive or lead to anything good. And the foundations are rooted so deeply in the subconscious mind, that it no longer is seen as it is, an abomination but as the normality, although very limited. You are an optimist but for your own good, you might want to try to drop it because eventually its gonna break you. Things are much easier to swallow when you half expect them but if you keep denying them or their possibilities, only expecting what you want reality to be, hell your sanity will take a blow, from which you will never recover.

To not be too off-topic: shamanism is still alive although new age people have no idea of its true worth and bottomless depth. And more than altered states of consciousness, its a way to transcend material limitations to a point even actual science would look like toddler's toys or pebbles thrown vainly on the moon's reflection on the ocean. Im not talking only of physical feats, but most of all, perception, comprehension and understanding of things unfathomable and maddening for the common mind. The hardest thing with shamanism, considering one's true WILL to learn it, is to let go of the notion that logic makes the world. You cant explain the world logically, at least not in the way #ty science is trying, in vain. Logic is a flaw, a fatal flaw of the current civilization and it will only go away with its devil's reject, or never.

Only someone who has completely misunderstood the meaning of logic, and even science, would make such claims. This is but my humble opinion, I'm not coming at you personally.

a reply to: nOraKat

Not all Shamanism is created equally, so you are wrong to define Shamanism as consciousness altering plants. In my culture, the people have lived for hundreds of years in the mountains without a written language, so Shamanism played a big part of medicine. Shamans were chosen by spirits, mostly by dead ancestors, and can range from as young as kids/ teenagers to the elderly regardless of gender. The spirits will send signs that a person has been targeted as a potential, either through lucid dreams, voices or severe illness to the point of death, only to be reawakened with a sixth sense. Shamans are highly respected individuals in the village and are often the ones people turn to for spiritual healings, advice and medicine. But not all shamans are equal in power because after unsuccessful rituals from weaker ones, villagers will often travel for days to bring offerings and seek help from more powerful shamans from other villages, all through word of mouth.

Growing up I haven't heard of a single shaman ingesting any substance before beginning a ritual. It all starts with a veil to cover the face and a steady beat of a drum. These individuals are chosen by ancestral spirits and it is actually considered a fraud to use mind altering substances to perform a ritual. Most shamans require either a trade, offering or currency for their work so there are instances of phony or fraud shamans who are often easy to spot and Most are ridiculed or banned from future practices.

As you can see, me coming from a culture where shamanism plays a major role in the community for answers, spiritualism and medicine, it is very offensive to see Shamanism as a whole be defined as mind altering plants.

originally posted by: TheJourney
If you think visionary plants are about simple pleasure seeking, it's safe to say you have little/no experience with them.

Two statements and two presumptions/assumptions in a row... that's rather remarkable. First of all, it is a mistake to presume/assume you know my experiences at all because you have no idea what my cultural history is. All I will tell you is that I am getting close to 70 years old. Once you understand that little bit of information, then it is possible to extrapolate when I would have been a crazy, risk-taking teenager and what type of lifestyle was prevalent in North America during those years. Think long hair, bell-bottom jeans, Jimi Hendrix and The Doors.

How long have you lived on this planet?

That is certainly not what they are for. You look elsewhere if that's what you're seeking.

Yes, with this I will most certainly agree. I have and continue to look elsewhere and that has nothing at all to do with your idea of 'fast-tracking' knowledge, like a mind-blowing, but confused 'eureka moment' after ingesting some potent hallucinogen. It doesn't work that way and to do something like that without intelligent and experienced support is not only foolhardy, but downright dangerous.

Hard lessons being hard lessons and all. Been there, done that, got smarter and don't wish to repeat stupid ideas.

originally posted by: masqua
And, as with all things quick and easy, it is mainly about finding pleasure and has little to do with 'understanding' anything. There are no fast lanes to gaining knowledge.

Yes, and unfortunately in these modern times of instant gratification, people expect such knowledge can be bought with a weekend seminar on enlightenment or a "magic" pill or any of the myriad quickies that can be purchased from the local snake-oil salesman.

We are patterned egoically for endless lifetimes, and then may have some insight into this moment to moment egoic patterning as being the root of our suffering. So we want relief and begin seeking it through various means offered. That is all well and good, but there is no quickie shortcut to real transcendental knowledge, as you are saying.

How do people think that the Divine Reality which is unconditional Consciousness (Being-Light-Energy) beyond all cause-and-effect can be purchased or gotten through conditional means? This approach is just a product of consumer-minded mentality and hopefully this seeking will be seen for what it is - more maya, distraction, binding experience, etc. And then when the searches unwind, recognizing the Reality beyond all conditions and seeking may be granted by that very Reality.

originally posted by: bb23108

This approach is just a product of consumer-minded mentality and hopefully this seeking will be seen for what it is - more maya, distraction, binding experience, etc. And then when the searches unwind, recognizing the Reality beyond all conditions and seeking may be granted by that very Reality.

On the other hand,

4.11 “As men approach me, so I receive them. All paths, Arjuna, lead to me.”

-The Bhagavad Gita

👣

originally posted by: masqua

originally posted by: TheJourney
If you think visionary plants are about simple pleasure seeking, it's safe to say you have little/no experience with them.

Two statements and two presumptions/assumptions in a row... that's rather remarkable. First of all, it is a mistake to presume/assume you know my experiences at all because you have no idea what my cultural history is. All I will tell you is that I am getting close to 70 years old. Once you understand that little bit of information, then it is possible to extrapolate when I would have been a crazy, risk-taking teenager and what type of lifestyle was prevalent in North America during those years. Think long hair, bell-bottom jeans, Jimi Hendrix and The Doors.

How long have you lived on this planet?

That is certainly not what they are for. You look elsewhere if that's what you're seeking.

Yes, with this I will most certainly agree. I have and continue to look elsewhere and that has nothing at all to do with your idea of 'fast-tracking' knowledge, like a mind-blowing, but confused 'eureka moment' after ingesting some potent hallucinogen. It doesn't work that way and to do something like that without intelligent and experienced support is not only foolhardy, but downright dangerous.

Hard lessons being hard lessons and all.

Been there, done that, got smarter and don't wish to repeat stupid ideas.

Maybe you had experience. But if you are describing the use of visionary plants as some sort of a feel-good-quick thing, you're just 100% wrong. For one thing, it is not so difficult to have the most terrifying experience you have ever had, that you could ever imagine. For another, it can reveal to you major flaws in yourself that run very deep, that you have never wanted to look at but is shown to you in a very obvious and intense way, that causes you to seriously question yourself and your life choices, and make some serious changes. Hence why psycho-therapists in the 60's said they could make more progress in a single session using one of these substances than they could in years of normal therapy. So to call this some little quick route to feeling good, is completely divorced from the reality of what these things do, and makes it seem like you have no idea what you're talking about. If you say you used to use these things, fine, but you are now making very inaccurate simplistic statements about them, either way.

originally posted by: BlueMule
On the other hand,

4.11 “As men approach me, so I receive them. All paths, Arjuna, lead to me.”

-The Bhagavad Gita

👣

The Divine Reality will receive all, and work with all, but the more you get infilled by the Divine, the greater the responsibilities for moment-to-moment transcendence of conditional patterning is given to you.

Basically, drugs may provide some temporary insight, but don't do anything when you are talking about a lifetime of daily whole bodily adherence to Reality. In fact, such substances toxify the body-mind, can be deluding, etc. They do nothing toward providing the foundation of equanimity necessary for real spiritual transcendence.

originally posted by: bb23108

originally posted by: BlueMule
On the other hand,

4.11 “As men approach me, so I receive them. All paths, Arjuna, lead to me.”

-The Bhagavad Gita

👣

The Divine Reality will receive all, and work with all, but the more you get infilled by the Divine, the greater the responsibilities for moment-to-moment transcendence of conditional patterning is given to you.

There is nothing on this planet more effective at assisting in the transcendence of conditional patterning than the visionary substances. Hence why it has been demonstrated to be remarkably effective at curing alcoholism, drug addiction, depression, and rehabilitating prisoners. Transcending conditional patterning is one of its most primary effects.