Absurd Fourth Circuit ruling embodies everything that’s wrong with drug raids

Seems to me sending a heavy armed swat team to raid someone for minor amounts of pot is a huge waste of tax money.

It does seem like the war on drugs is what gives most police personnel a job. I imagine being a tough guy when dealing with people, many who are kids, carrying small, personal supplies of pot is part of the draw of the job.

originally posted by: FalcoFan
a reply to: Krazysh0t

It would be nice if they used their manpower and resources to get rid of gangs-an actual deadly menace and threat to civilians.

But that would make too much sense-and get Jesse and Al screaming racism.

Gangs pay tribute to their local police and city hall hence their not harassed as much as your average citizen.

a reply to: 200Plus

Nice of you to ask. We have two case studies that we can look at for where trends will go with ending the war on drugs. One recent and the other in the past. First up: Portugal.

'This Is Working': Portugal, 12 Years after Decriminalizing Drugs

Ten Years After Decriminalization, Drug Abuse Down by Half in Portugal

Drug decriminalisation in Portugal: setting the record straight

Second up: Prohibition

12 Bad Effects of Prohibition You Should Know

Prohibition: Unintended Consequences

Why Prohibition Failed

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I read this on a another thread yesterday. I will use it going forward:


There's a reason you separate military and the police.

One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people.

When the military becomes both (insert: or the Police become militarized), then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.

- Commander Adama BSG

a reply to: infolurker

Well said. There is a reason our forefathers made specific Amendments in the Constitution to prevent such things from happening.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Interesting. Thank you for the links. I had no idea so many countries had decriminalized narcotics.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I remember a very well versed member here on ATS put it best.
"The government has created a bunch of very large hammers now they need to find a bunch of nails."

These days you don't simply get a cop knocking on the door. 15 of em in full body armor rush you at 4:30 am. I have seen the police here in Colorado sporting T-shirts that say.
"It's my job to save your ass, not kiss it."

a reply to: JAY1980

See the problem is that the police aren't the only problem here. They certainly are a significant part of it, but the enablers are the courts and our laws themselves. The courts give the pass to the police by not holding them accountable to their mistakes so they don't learn and continue to make those mistakes. With no accountability, things just devolve from there.

Even when a lawsuit against the police sticks and isn't overturned, the police still don't "pay". The taxpayers pay for the lawsuit. There is literally ZERO accountability for police action and frankly, we've unleashed a monster here.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

So they have a "right" to rape and murder the elderly?


Hmm-I guess that's why the gangs do it so much here.

originally posted by: FalcoFan
a reply to: Krazysh0t

It would be nice if they used their manpower and resources to get rid of gangs-an actual deadly menace and threat to civilians.

But that would make too much sense-and get Jesse and Al screaming racism.

I wouldn't have a problem with them going after any group of criminals, as long as they also went after organized crime like the Mafia and the Mob as well. But they can't simply label a group "criminal" just because they fit a certain social profile. People have to actually be found guilty of a crime to be criminals. Otherwise they're just suspects.

As for the OP, the 4th Amendment's been dead for a while now. They've even got devices that can basically see through walls but they don't count as searches. The 5th Amendment is almost dead too, since you are usually found guilty if you try to invoke it in a case against yourself. That defeats the whole point in it existing.

originally posted by: roadgravel
Seems to me sending a heavy armed swat team to raid someone for minor amounts of pot is a huge waste of tax money.

It does seem like the war on drugs is what gives most police personnel a job. I imagine being a tough guy when dealing with people, many who are kids, carrying small, personal supplies of pot is part of the draw of the job.

Oh definitely. And right now they have a financial incentive to keep things as they are.

Just think about what would happen if everyone suddenly stopped using drugs and committing crimes (even minor infractions). Now imagine if this continued for a full year. How many police departments and local governments would go broke without having any fines, court fees, or forfeited assets to collect? Or without having any assets to sell at their police auctions? And then think about it once the subsidies and other funds related to the "War on Drugs" are no longer coming in (not to mention the loss of revenue from gaining no new inmates).

They literally wouldn't be able to fund their workforces or their benefits. So I'd imagine they would either increase the costs of other fees or start criminalizing new things. And that's after the massive layoffs. There are simply too many people who have a vested interest in keeping things as they are.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

This is just bad governance. STUPID....I hope all the toys and legal protection they get is enough to curb the MILLENNIA of human nature that will one day make police a target as well as all government for backlash.

I am not worried about cops "walking off". I am worried about cops hiding in their homes when the MILLIONS of people they piss off yearly get tired of this and start to look for revenge.

They can pretend like they dont care and that they will just bust our heads open and lie in court to lock us away....but since in all the centuries of empires and governments that tried to use the brute force tactic failed in the long run, I would say that is a retarded course of action. Eventually, people start to push back...and when your response is to push them back harder, they start to kill people. When your response to that is to kill them back, they start to become revolutionaries. No comfort and fear is enough to hinder this aspect of human nature. Call it a mystery of the human condition, I dont know. It is still very much true.

If you think this is all too much and just random BS on my part...read history. ALL revolutions and social upheavals start like this. Exactly like this. Then the strong arms of the empire hide and run until they die in the shadows or far off lands....because people dont forget.

This is IMO more of a threat to the fabric of our society and the foundation of law and order in our country than all our enemies and problems combined. I am serious. This is going to get REALLY bad.

Cops need to realize that they, maybe, SHOULD walk off if they cant do their jobs professionally and HONESTLY. You may even
be really good with words and argue one hell of a case...no one will care. No one does care. They know like cops know that it is all BS....and there is gross injustice happening on their part.

I say this all with genuine concern. My best friend (BROTHER) in this world is a cop. I sometimes fear for him and all his coworkers..they arent bad people, but they are blind to the writing on the wall....too much faith in muscle and steel. I know better.

The act of sending in SWAT team to bust someone for drugs, especially MJ seems to be a "cruel and unusual" action that goes well beyond a need to maintain a public safety.

If 1 single person has a car flip over because of manufacturer error, there can be recalls of entire product lines (tires, brake lines, etc). Just 1 death is all it takes to have a manufacturer lose millions in cost of goods and lost sales. But in the last year or two we have heard everything from an old man being shot lying in his bed during a wrong address, to a baby being burned alive in its bed during a wrong address.

Just on the face of it....something is amiss. In the private sector if a Ford flips over, Firestone has to start issuing recalls. In Government? You can burn a baby alive, and still not review the process to make sure that it never happens again. Because it does.

This has nothing to do with drugs and drug laws. It has everything to do with intimidation. And it has no place in public service.

Police aren't the problem. Its the mandates they operate under. You can blame the officers individually....but if they chose not to do it, someone else would. Its the whole machine, not the individual cogs in the wheels.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

100% spot on. There are many variables at play here. A lot of people like to simply blame the police. Because hey they are the ones in the spotlight when some kid gets shot. They are after all on the front line. The ones dealing with the absolute scum of our society. But they do need to be held accountable by the system they serve. They can't use the same kind of aggressive tactics when dealing with grandma they use on the 400 pound gorilla hopped up on '___'.

The cops have no stake in the streets they patrol anymore.
If they were patrolling their hood now they run the risk of injuring their own kids from firing 80 rounds at some criminal.
Maybe then they would think twice.

Train the police on how to be more human and less focus on hardcore military tactics.
How to identify a garden sprayer vs a gun kinda stuff.

Use the internet to create an open forum of communication between the people and law enforcement. Not this Facebook crap. Have the officers faces up there and their performance ratings with comments and suggestions by actual people who have been served by the officer. Right now there is no means of communication other than protesting. All that's doing is making both sides more fearful of the other.

a reply to: JAY1980

a big help would be creating some kind of laws to constrain them. Or at the very least, judicial precedence.

Examples would be disallowing serving of warrants to peoples homes during any times that a noise ordinance might be in effect. That seems reasonable. Disallowing "no knock" would be another positive step. If you are going to bring 20 men to a warrant serving, surround the house and knock on the door. The path of least resistance. Maybe disallow militarized uniforms during day to day public interactions (including serving warrants). Change the mindset of the operation.

You don't have to train anyone if you just make some simple rules on how police are allowed to conduct themselves. Which, by the way, is the primary purpose of law: to constrain the government and ensure the freedom of the people.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I agree for the most part. Impose some stiff consequences for acting our of line. Plus getting rid of the "no knock" policy would be a step in the right direction.

But I feel better training and preparation for the rigors of the job would be a big help. In my opinion it's the training that leads most cops to shoot first. They make taking a human life look simple. Like shooting a paper target. Trained to be aggressive and never give an inch, comply or be shot kind of attitude.

It takes a trained professional to diffuse a potentially violent deadly situation without violence.

I think your idea of getting rid of the military style equipment on regular patrole and during the day would be another good idea. All it does now is instill fear in people.

Eta. No offense ment by my 400 lb gorilla comment in my last post.

It does come across that some of our law makers are just addicted to drugs as the users themselves with this obsessed focus on recovering the drug rather than any of the other life priorities.

If this cultural ideology is defunct at using reason to achieve a more responsible approach, then how about fear as a motivation. Headline - "Jason Bourne takes out entire police force. An early morning drug raid backfired as a decorated military solider responded to the surprise and disorientation of a no knock raid... ". Like some of our other media these days, does it matter if it is true when trying to heard and direct public opinion?

But will such a event (contrived or real) make the police go even harder? Is next on the list trial by drones and guilt by association like some parts of this world in now under. Considering the poor conviction rates at gitmo bay I do question and doubt the strength of justice behind some of these lists. Or is this just the beta testing stage as the war machine continually looks for some purpose and reason to exist.

originally posted by: FalcoFan
a reply to: Krazysh0t

So they have a "right" to rape and murder the elderly?


Hmm-I guess that's why the gangs do it so much here.

What? No. That crap is illegal. If our police weren't so preoccupied with drugs, maybe they could devote more resources to cracking down on REAL crimes.

a reply to: kwakakev

One of the biggest problems though is that backlash against the police via injuring or killing them only results in the judicial system coming down harder on you. The worst thing you could ever be accused of in the eyes of law is a cop killer. If you have a raid served on you are completely innocent and happen to kill a cop in the process of defending your home, you are effed.

Great thread krazyshot. I don't have much more to add except to say I agree that there is an easy way to end most of the gang violence and cripple the cartels as well. The solution is painfully obvious. But people have been conditioned to accept that drugs are basically the devil and must be combated at all costs and its worth it to give up everything, even if you don't end up putting a dent in "the devil" after all is said and done. Drug use has not gone down due to prohibition. Therefore it stands to reason that it will not go up upon the repeal of prohibition. It should actually go down, for various reasons. There is nothing to fear, but fear itself.