Atheists and Agnostics don't believe in God but want spread their nothing word

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Well, one persons incredible is another persons credible. One persons 'not very impressive' is another persons 'very impressive'.

I do applaud the work you've put into this. But I can't help but wonder if you are open to new evidence, or if you feel you've seen enough to make up your mind. Is the jury out?

If your inner jury is out, then I wonder what you would think of Persingers recent work.



And I wonder what you would think of this letter. About 90 scientists and academics have co-signed a letter published in Frontiers in Human Neuroscience, that calls for more mainstream support of parapsychology. The letter stresses six points:

1. Research on parapsychological phenomena (psi) is being carried out in various accredited universities and research centers throughout the world by academics in different disciplines trained in the scientific method (e.g., circa 80 Ph.D.s have been awarded in psi-related topics in the UK in recent years). This research has continued for over a century despite the taboo against investigating the topic, almost complete lack of funding, and professional and personal attacks. The Parapsychological Association has been an affiliate of the AAAS since 1969, and more than 20 Nobel prizewinners and many other eminent scientists have supported the study of psi or even conducted research themselves.

2. Despite a negative attitude by some editors and reviewers, results supporting the validity of psi phenomena continue to be published in peer-reviewed, academic journals in relevant fields, from psychology to neuroscience to physics.

3. Increased experimental controls have not eliminated or even decreased significant support for the existence of psi phenomena, as suggested by various recent meta-analyses.

4. These meta-analyses and other studies suggest that data supportive of psi phenomena cannot reasonably be accounted for by chance or by a “file drawer” effect. Indeed, contrary to most disciplines, parapsychology journals have for decades encouraged publication of null results and of papers critical of a psi explanation. A psi trial registry has been established to improve research practice.

5. The effect sizes reported in most meta-analyses are relatively small and the phenomena cannot be produced on demand, but this also characterizes various phenomena found in other disciplines that focus on complex human behavior and performance such as psychology and medicine.

6. Although more conclusive explanations for psi phenomena await further theoretical and research development, they do not prima facie violate known laws of nature given modern theories in physics that transcend classical restrictions of time and space, combined with growing evidence for quantum effects in biological systems.

You can view the full letter, and list of co-signers, here:

A CALL FOR AN OPEN, INFORMED STUDY OF ALL ASPECTS OF CONSCIOUSNESS

👣

originally posted by: gmoneystunt
a reply to: maxzen2004

Just to clarify, Agnostic is a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

The Agnostics Prayer:

"Dear God, if there is a God, save my soul, if I have a soul."

Cheers - Dave

originally posted by: BlueMule

originally posted by: Prezbo369

This has nothing to do with the lack of belief in gods, more the lack of evidence to support such claims and the number of exposed frauds claiming to be psychics and/or mystics.

Since there is no such lack of evidence, it has to do with a blind spot that the majority of atheists share.

👣

I guess all the scientific breakthroughs in mysticism and psychics have been covered up as part of a giant conspiracy......

But what about all the exposed charlatans and frauds?

Taking advantage of the desperate and gullible, you can't get much lower.

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: BlueMule

originally posted by: Prezbo369

This has nothing to do with the lack of belief in gods, more the lack of evidence to support such claims and the number of exposed frauds claiming to be psychics and/or mystics.

Since there is no such lack of evidence, it has to do with a blind spot that the majority of atheists share.

👣

I guess all the scientific breakthroughs in mysticism and psychics have been covered up as part of a giant conspiracy......

But what about all the exposed charlatans and frauds?

Taking advantage of the desperate and gullible, you can't get much lower.

No conspiracy required, just very human taboo.

👣

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: gmoneystunt
a reply to: maxzen2004

Just to clarify, Agnostic is a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

The Agnostics Prayer:

"Dear God, if there is a God, save my soul, if I have a soul."

Cheers - Dave

Agnostics in this context are atheists.

You either collect stamps or you don't, it's that simple.

originally posted by: daskakik

Yes, but I didn't mean gnostic as in the gnostic schools but just the word "know".

Would you mind describing your practice and experiences?

👣

I can't remember the last crusade that was launched by an atheist. Come to that, I can't remember the last time that a major terrorist attack was carried out in the name of atheism. And speaking as an atheist all I want is to be left alone. Getting creationist leaflets shoved in my face every time I leave the train station is annoying, but then at least I smile and shake my head instead of taking, reading, laughing and throwing away.

originally posted by: BlueMule
No conspiracy required, just very human taboo.

👣

In which world could it be described as 'taboo'?

Seems like a weak attempt to blame society for not accepting psychic powers.....

It's not that, it's the fact that there is no good reason to think they do posses such powers.

originally posted by: BlueMule
a reply to: Arbitrageur

Well, one persons incredible is another persons credible. One persons 'not very impressive' is another persons 'very impressive'.

I do applaud the work you've put into this. But I can't help but wonder if you are open to new evidence, or if you feel you've seen enough to make up your mind. Is the jury out?

I think some research showing some positive results on psi would be great. I'd like to believe it, but the results aren't there. I don't think Persinger understands electromagnetism nearly as well as I do, it's what I studied at university. His claims make no rational sense bsed on what I know of electromagnetism. Also I don't trust him after his 2005 debacle.

5. The effect sizes reported in most meta-analyses are relatively small and the phenomena cannot be produced on demand, but this also characterizes various phenomena found in other disciplines that focus on complex human behavior and performance such as psychology and medicine.

This isn't much of a rebuttal of Dr. Parks claim that the field contains pathological science, in fact it's admitting the main reason that the field isn't more widely accepted.

I don't know how much more I can do to convince you than to quote your own source and say that this, in a nutshell, is the problem. That, and the claims that the small effects can't be caused by something else aren't credible.

So what we can say is that even if one were to overcome the objections of the skeptics and choose to believe the meta-analyses, you still are stuck with "The effect sizes reported in most meta-analyses are relatively small", so small that it causes debate about the significance. Even if it's "real" it doesn't seem to amount to much, right? That's what they mean by "relatively small".

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: gmoneystunt
a reply to: maxzen2004

Just to clarify, Agnostic is a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

The Agnostics Prayer:

"Dear God, if there is a God, save my soul, if I have a soul."

Cheers - Dave

Agnostics in this context are atheists.

You either collect stamps or you don't, it's that simple.

Stamps are imaginary by virtue of their lack of value based upon a fiat (imaginary) currency which only has value based upon a confidence game which is a purely mental construct that requires misguided faith, otherwise known as a scam.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: BlueMule
I don't really have practices. Had many OBEs when I was a teen. They still happen every now and then.

Of course I looked around for info that might explain what I had experienced. One day someone I had never met handed me a Carlos Castaneda book. The story resonated and it made more sense than trying to shoehorn everything into christianity.

A few years ago I discovered Robert Monroe. Liked the scientific approach but even he says, early on, that hard proof probably wasn't going to be obtainable in his lifetime. Something like that.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
I don't think Persinger understands electromagnetism nearly as well as I do, it's what I studied at university. His claims make no rational sense bsed on what I know of electromagnetism.

But the onus is on you to replicate his experiments on Sean Harribance, which he describes in that vid I posted, thus backing up your counter-claim.

I don't know how much more I can do to convince you than to quote your own source and say that this, in a nutshell, is the problem. That, and the claims that the small effects can't be caused by something else aren't credible.

So what we can say is that even if one were to overcome the objections of the skeptics and choose to believe the meta-analyses, you still are stuck with "The effect sizes reported in most meta-analyses are relatively small", so small that it causes debate about the significance. Even if it's "real" it doesn't seem to amount to much, right? That's what they mean by "relatively small".

If you're trying to convince me, I'll save you the trouble. You won't. I've had far too many veridical psychic experiences for a skeptic on the internet to change my mind.

It's real, and for some people it doesn't amount to much because there are certain kinds of people that don't experience it very much in their lives. There are other kinds of people that experience it a lot. That's why there are predictable scoring patterns.

👣

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: gmoneystunt
a reply to: maxzen2004

Just to clarify, Agnostic is a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

The Agnostics Prayer:

"Dear God, if there is a God, save my soul, if I have a soul."

Cheers - Dave

Agnostics in this context are atheists.

You either collect stamps or you don't, it's that simple.

Stamps are imaginary by virtue of their lack of value based upon a fiat (imaginary) currency which only has value based upon a confidence game which is a purely mental construct that requires misguided faith, otherwise known as a scam.

Cheers - Dave

Even weakened weasels have been known to make their escape from precarious situations with their integrity intact.

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: gmoneystunt
a reply to: maxzen2004

Just to clarify, Agnostic is a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

The Agnostics Prayer:

"Dear God, if there is a God, save my soul, if I have a soul."

Cheers - Dave

Agnostics in this context are atheists.

You either collect stamps or you don't, it's that simple.

Stamps are imaginary by virtue of their lack of value based upon a fiat (imaginary) currency which only has value based upon a confidence game which is a purely mental construct that requires misguided faith, otherwise known as a scam.

Cheers - Dave

Even weakened weasels have been known to make their escape from precarious situations with their integrity intact.

And this weekend, rather than weasels (which I see often in the yard towards the lake), I witnessed an amazing event, two blondes, a redhead and a brunette wearing smiles in the upper gallery and their performance of some seriously cunning stunts! Looking up from the main floor, it was well, incredibly artistic, yeah, that's the word I'll use ;-)

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: bobs_uruncle

Big fan of cunning stunts

a reply to: Prezbo369

I believe there is something out there, just not terribly sure it's what most folks call "God". I am not an atheist. Telling me my agnosticism makes me an atheist makes you rather narrow minded and possibly wishing you were god. Just sayin'.

I don't have the time nor inclination to pour through 26 pages of discussion, but I will respond to the OP.

Why is it that a religious person trying to bring people into their way of thinking is fine, yet when an atheist does the same, you postulate that they are mentally ill? I know this question has probably been asked in the thread. But I think it goes to demonstrate the mindset of the OP.

originally posted by: maxzen2004
I recently watched the CNN special on Atheists and I understand and respect their belief. But to stand in an airport and preach not to believe anything is weird. Are these people mentally ill? A former Pastor became a non-believer and lost everything, ok the point? I think Satanist use the Atheist veil to hide their real agenda.

If one of these bozos come up to me, I will tell them they are idiots.

Satan could also be considered a God. So, your atheist argument in relation to being a satanist is mute.

a reply to: Prezbo369

You can say that I belong to a small(literally) People who believes in God(not the traditional one as i said), at the same time are men/women of science. I am searching for the proof or might even propose a Hypothesis, about my belief, about where/how/when is The God(s)?(the real one(s)).
If after all these years of reading and experimenting of what we know, my conclusion is "We don't know crap". But, we are making progress and future generation(if human race survives) will have some interesting "things" to explore.

originally posted by: Ironhawke
a reply to: Prezbo369

I believe there is something out there, just not terribly sure it's what most folks call "God". I am not an atheist. Telling me my agnosticism makes me an atheist makes you rather narrow minded and possibly wishing you were god. Just sayin'.

You should look into the meanings of the words 'atheist' and 'agnostic', because they don't mean what you think they mean no matter how much you want them to.

If you do not have a belief in a god, you're an atheist. You don't have to know there is no god, or claim to know, the fact you have no belief puts you down as an atheist, whether you like it or not.

The only way you wouldn't be an atheist would be if you had a belief in gods......agnosticism/Gnosticism doesn't even enter the equation.