Espionage, by Any Other Name (Spying on your 'friends')

A very interesting take on Israel's interception of classified information relating to ongoing negotiations with Iran - and passing it along to the GOP. The blog's author, Scott Ritter, is no lightweight, and is described as follows:
"Scott Ritter is a former Marine intelligence officer who served on the staff of General Norman Schwartzkopf during the Gulf War and as a UN weapons inspector in Iraq from 1991 until 1998. He has written several books on US policy, including his most recent, Dangerous Ground, published by Nation books."

Espionage, by Any Other Name
While much has been made about the so-called "treasonous" actions of 47 members of Congress, led by Senator Tom Cotton of Arkansas, in penning an ill-advised letter to the Government of Iran aimed at undermining the ongoing nuclear negotiations, there is a stark difference between political stupidity -- which the act of writing such a letter represents -- and espionage, which is what those members of Congress who have aided and abetted the Government of Israel in its efforts to collect and disseminate classified U.S. information to unauthorized persons have engaged in. Blog

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

I would suggest that Israel are using the U.S. to their own benefit on Middle East issues:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu yesterday vehemently denied a Wall Street Journal report, leaked by the Obama White House, that Israel spied on U.S. negotiations with Iran and then fed the intelligence to Congressional Republicans. His office’s denial was categorical and absolute, extending beyond this specific story to U.S.-targeted spying generally, claiming: “The state of Israel does not conduct espionage against the United States or Israel’s other allies.”

Israel’s claim is not only incredible on its face. It is also squarely contradicted by top-secret NSA documents, which state that Israel targets the U.S. government for invasive electronic surveillance, and does so more aggressively and threateningly than almost any other country in the world. Indeed, so concerted and aggressive are Israeli efforts against the U.S. that some key U.S. government documents — including the top secret 2013 intelligence budget — list Israel among the U.S.’s most threatening cyber-adversaries and as a “hostile” foreign intelligence service.

www.liveleak.com...

a reply to: Zcustosmorum
Are you suggesting that Bibi fibs? Say it ain't so!
It does appear, though, that the GOP screwed up royally by playing this game. My late father-in-law would have called it something akin to "pissing in yer boots to keep yer feet warm."

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
a reply to: Zcustosmorum
Are you suggesting that Bibi fibs? Say it ain't so!
It does appear, though, that the GOP screwed up royally by playing this game. My late father-in-law would have called it something akin to "pissing in yer boots to keep yer feet warm."

Bibi didn't "fib"....he said "we do no spy on the united states"...which is technically correct....they spied on the Iranian side of the conversation

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
a reply to: Zcustosmorum
Are you suggesting that Bibi fibs? Say it ain't so!
It does appear, though, that the GOP screwed up royally by playing this game. My late father-in-law would have called it something akin to "pissing in yer boots to keep yer feet warm."

Either he fibs or has a really bad interpretation of what truth means haha

Other points in question, did the GOP know Israel was doing the surveillance? Did they let them do it? There are clear connections between the GOP & Israel

originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
a reply to: Zcustosmorum
Are you suggesting that Bibi fibs? Say it ain't so!
It does appear, though, that the GOP screwed up royally by playing this game. My late father-in-law would have called it something akin to "pissing in yer boots to keep yer feet warm."

Bibi didn't "fib"....he said "we do no spy on the united states"...which is technically correct....they spied on the Iranian side of the conversation

Not true:

While noting that Russia and China do the most effective spying on U.S., he says that “Israel also targets us.” He explains that “A NIE [National Intelligence Estimate] ranked [Israel] as the third most aggressive intelligence service against the US.” While praising the surveillance relationship with Israel as highly valuable, he added: “One of NSA’s biggest threats is actually from friendly intelligence services, like Israel.” Specifically, the Israelis “target us to learn our positions on Middle East problems.”

I bet Israel gets plenty of inside information from both sides.

They have ears everywhere for good reason.

Is the OP suggesting that Canada doesn't have their own clandestine services and that those same services do not maintain surveillance over every, friend and foe alike? Could it be that Canadians are truly that naïve?

originally posted by: ketsuko
Is the OP suggesting that Canada doesn't have their own clandestine services and that those same services do not maintain surveillance over every, friend and foe alike? Could it be that Canadians are truly that naïve?

What does that have to do with the Blog I referenced?

a
reply to: jimmyx
You are correct. I've said this on many occasions. With hand on their hearts they can say honestly that THEY never spied onsay the American people. But the biggest but with a reciprical agreement with the UK GCHQ and the Mi s spy on Americans and the American agencies spy on UK citizens and swop intel. Therefore ,with so called plausable deniability, the can honestly say that they do not spy on their own people.
The same goes if the US wants Israel spied on they just ask the UK s agencies to do it and can then claim it was'nt them.

Every nation spies on each other. It's not just about military intelligence. Spying is how nations can avoid paranoia. Without spying the US would have to wonder if Canada is going to follow through on their trade treaties with us, or if they're going to send a bunch of troops to the border. Governments may not like being spied on, but open information is good for everyone.

originally posted by: Aazadan
Governments may not like being spied on, but open information is good for everyone.

Have you even read the blog? The issue is....
Any Israeli involved in the collection of such information would be a spy, and any American who knowingly gained unauthorized access to this information and used it on behalf of a foreign government to disadvantage the United States a criminal. This includes members of Congress not specifically cleared for this information but who received it as a result of briefings provided to them by representatives of the Government of Israel.

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuckHave you even read the blog? The issue is....
Any Israeli involved in the collection of such information would be a spy, and any American who knowingly gained unauthorized access to this information and used it on behalf of a foreign government to disadvantage the United States a criminal. This includes members of Congress not specifically cleared for this information but who received it as a result of briefings provided to them by representatives of the Government of Israel.

You caught me. I did not read the article, the blog ramblings of someone aren't generally things I read. That said, I was responding to the idea that it's a bad thing that people were spying. Espionage is a very good thing for everyone involved.

So if you want to discuss the article. Lets start with the premise that anyone who collects classified information is a spy. This is not true. Julian Assange was not spying on the US. Chelsea Manning was not spying on the US. Edward Snowden was not spying on the US. Next, so what if the person is a spy? As I've already established, espionage is a good thing and spies are the ones who collect that data.

Next is the idea that what Israel did is illegal. Israeli's likely not on US soil are not subject to American laws which spying falls under. What they did was entirely legal where they reside and was legal according to Israeli law. Therefore these people were not criminals. Furthermore, a large portion of spying is done by diplomats who enjoy immunity. This immunity is one of the reasons diplomats are spies.

Last, what goes around comes around. The US routinely uses intelligence to influence foreign powers that's one of the main methods any nation projects power. As long as we're going to play that game, we shouldn't be upset when it is done to us in return.

I'll close with this from the article

...at the end of the day Israel is a foreign country whose status as a close ally of the United States does not shield it or those who act on its behalf from U.S. law.

That is precisely what it does. As the author agrees to, Israel is a foreign country. There's a funny thing about US law, and any other nations law for that matter. It stops at that nations borders.

a reply to: [post=19166563]Aazadan[/post
If you are an American and you are comfortable with these circumstances, there's not a thing I can add to the conversation.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

Here's an interesting tidbit from your link:

Not only have the members of Congress who received Israeli briefings derived from intercepted U.S. diplomatic communications illegally received classified information, they actively coordinated with the Israeli government to use this information to undermine the policies of the U.S. Government. This is criminal activity chargeable under 50 U.S.C. § 783 and other U.S. statutes. The announcement by Boehner on January 21, 2015 that Netanyahu would address the U.S. Congress about the issue of Iran coincided with a concerted push by Israeli diplomats, armed with classified U.S. diplomatic traffic detailing the ongoing talks with Iran that had been intercepted by Israeli intelligence, to influence members of Congress. This represents acts chargeable under 18 U.S.C. § 371, the same general conspiracy statute used to convict others accused of acts of espionage. Both are felonies, punishable by fines and up to ten years in prison for each charge. We're not talking politics as usual here; we're talking criminal behavior.

I wonder if he's correct with regards to these legal citations he stated ?

And if he is correct, will any formal actions from the Obama administration be taken against any of the parties involved ?

Maybe this might explain why Obama is publicly riling against Israel as of late... maybe he's laying the groundwork for taking future legal action on this matter ?


Anyways, that was a great read JC.

Thanks !

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
If you are an American and you are comfortable with these circumstances, there's not a thing I can add to the conversation.

I am very pro espionage. Things are better when most/all information is openly available to all, then there's no room for secrets. That means us and them.

originally posted by: CranialSponge
Maybe this might explain why Obama is publicly riling against Israel as of late... maybe he's laying the groundwork for taking future legal action on this matter ?

Very unlikely. Even if Obama wanted to do it, I think the rest of the government would refuse. Do you understand the absolute unfixable mess it would create if one political party were to legally prosecute the other? It would result in no less than civil war, and potentially even worse than that.