Some insight for westerners who support Russian expansion into Crimea and eastern Ukraine.

a reply to: pexx421

OR....if Russia would have not tried to get involved in other peoples business in the Ukraine NOTHING of that would have happened anywhere in the Ukraine.

Just saying.

EDIT TO ADD:
I would have respected Russia if they just left after "liberating" them. The fact that my country "liberates" people all the time has made me wise to that BS.

They TOOK land that was not theirs...and the awakened crowd here in the west thinks they were LIBERATED...by now being under another far off capitals rule....

Just like every other place people say we in the west didnt "liberate", but rather took control over.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: pexx421

OR....if Russia would have not tried to get involved in other peoples business in the Ukraine NOTHING of that would have happened anywhere in the Ukraine.

Just saying.

"EDIT TO ADD:
I would have respected Russia if they just left after "liberating" them. The fact that my country "liberates" people all the time has made me wise to that BS.

They TOOK land that was not theirs...and the awakened crowd here in the west thinks they were LIBERATED...by now being under another far off capitals rule....

Just like every other place people say we in the west didnt "liberate", but rather took control over."

So what's the problem then since that edit I place in commas? the fact is nobody mentioned being liberated, but also the fact is that Crimea has joined the rest of the 'democratic' world, and until they want to say different, that's the way it is

a reply to: MALBOSIA

Yeah I saw tens of thousands of people in the street I naturally assumed they were all CIA agents?

a reply to: tadaman

But the US has no historic ties with those "liberated" countries, have you got any clue what the historic ties of Russians are with Crimea?...Khrushchev never should have given it away in the first place.

a reply to: smurfy

Oh, but that is the central argument in support of Russia's role in all this. They came to liberate their ethnic Russian cousins who were not happy under Ukranian Rule.

Another example to this old as dirt issue...

Germany wanted to protect ethnic germans caught in between Germany and Poland. They were supported world wide when they came to "liberate" their ethnic cousins from the outright oppression they were suffering under Polish rule.

What would we do if history repeats itself like some say we should look to avoid...what if instead of Germany and Russia invading Poland and other areas of the former Austrian empire and German nation pre WW1, to defend ethnic Germans....but instead Russia invades eastern Ukraine to protect its ethnic cousins?

In 1938 we had the Munich Agreement, British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain agreed to Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland, portions of Czechoslovakia with ethnic-German majorities. Chamberlain claimed that the deal had averted another massive European war, but it only delayed the conflict while making Hitler more powerful when the war finally came.

Hitler was like Putin in disliking the new nations formed artificially by the victorious allies after WW1, Putin dislikes the artificial nations formed out of former soviet satellites. Poland was formed as a nation after 124 years of not existing. History is not clear cut. Poland had many ethnic Germans like Russia has ethnic Russians all over eastern Europe.

Putin sees his empire reaching to anywhere where people like or similar to his own exist. Germany did as well and that thinking leads to war.

If you think that Crinea is doing good...remember this time of grace when they have their first of many wars over many years to come over this nonsense. They have been fought over for centuries and will for many more...because they are always fooled into carrying other peoples banners in the name of their own idiosyncrasy.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Hitler said the same when first trying to capture his country's former lands and those of Germany's ally the Austrian empire...

I guess you feel he was right....his people were being mistreated under foreign rule...Germany should have never given up all its lands and let the allies carve them up as they did after WW1...

Right? No thats different and underhanded of me to say...right?

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: Greathouse

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
a reply to: tadaman

Why are you telling us this?

Why do you care how westerners see Russia. We westerners have our own dirty laundry to deal with. Pointing the "shame" finger at Russia is not only counter productive but it also cements our ignorance towards our own short comings.

So it's okay for the Ukraine and the Crimea to suffer from Russian aggression just because the US did it before?

I said the west, not the US. If we are just going to ignore the possibility that the west started the coup in the Ukraine, then I suppose that 'Miss USA' statement you just made would move me.

The US has no intrest in Ukraine it was the EU that wanted to open up a new market. And eastern Europe wants European goods. This is an economic issue Russia could sell them sub par goods and make huge profits. And ship in iron and military tech at below market prices. Wasn't until China started buying up military tech did they realize the value and hiw much money can be made supplying jet engines etc. This made Russia very unhappy because they rely on imports for manufacturing. Their plants are outdated needs to be overhauled so it was cheaper for oligarchs to import them. This is why Russia became concerned it is an issue of national security.

Their armed forces depends on steel and Ukraine manufacturers. Russia forced the coup and still trying to keep the conflict going until they can claim this manufacturing region.Even niw with the cease fire Russia continues to send weopons into Ukraine they can't stop now to much invested.

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: MALBOSIA

Yeah I saw tens of thousands of people in the street I naturally assumed they were all CIA agents?

In Crimea?

What are we talking about here?

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Hitler said the same when first trying to capture his country's former lands and those of Germany's ally the Austrian empire...

I guess you feel he was right....his people were being mistreated under foreign rule...Germany should have never given up all its lands and let the allies carve them up as they did after WW1...

Right? No thats different and underhanded of me to say...right?

Did Germany had any choice after WWI ?

And besides, Putin is no Hitler, you just keep making analogies to suite your point...

...but how about the people of Crimea just being happy with it, isn`t that what should count, or are you against happy people ?

originally posted by: tadaman
If you put even a little effort in informing yourself you discover that Crimerans are very much Crimerans over anything else. Their loyalty is to Crimea, not the Ukraine and not even Russia. They want to speak Russian regionally, want to think of themselves as ethnic Russians, but they dont see themselves as part of the Russian federation.

Honestly, how can you say you know Crimeans and you have never been there? You don't even mention some critical factors influencing why Crimeans feel the way they do.

Ever since Russia installed a base at Sevastopol Russian nationals have been flooding the peninsula. They mixed with the locals, made families, settled down there. Yalta was one of the famous Soviet vacation destinations for many years. Rich Russians built small palaces there. The vast majority of people in Crimea have strong family ties to Russia.

The Tatars are the only ones that identify as Crimean first. They are a small percentage of the population, sadly due to massive Russian immigration and policies designed to basically destroy the Tatar culture.

The peninsula was taken without a fight. There is obviously massive support for Russia among the population. I have personally traveled there. Seen Yalta, boated around the Russian fleet in Sevastopol.

The majority of Crimeans identify as Russian. I hate to burst your bubble on the subject, but it's true. I hate the way Russia took the peninsula over. It was illegal and it should be returned to Ukraine. However I openly admit if a free and fair vote was to be done, the past referendum was a joke, that the likely outcome would be a vote to join Russia.

You haven't been to Crimea but have read lots about it. Have you been to Russia? Or have you read lots about that too?

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Well as far as historic ties...tell me of any part of Europe without "historic" ties to other parts.

Places on earth like europe and the ME are replete with historic ties all across the board. If you want to get technical, Crimea has then ties to Greece, Rome, Venice, and other now long dead empires. Are we now going to consider giving back those Greek colonies?

AND actually Crimean Tartars sacked Moscow in 1571 and burned everything except the kremlin....so the historic ties goes both ways..not just as friendly brotherly love between two peoples.

They are not Russian. They are Crimean.

EDIT TO ADD:
Russia controlled Crimea for 170 years more or less. The Ottoman empire controlled it for over 300 years....Your choice of historic selectivism is interesting. The Golden horde also controlled it for a while...want to get them in the mix?

a reply to: MALBOSIA

Kiev

Oh and yeah and you should probably become acquainted with this word.


Sarchasm


the gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it

a reply to: tadaman

How many Russian lives have been given because of Crimea and it`s defence, I`m talking also about those historic ties...you`re also forgetting Crimeans already `91 have voted to be independent from the Ukraine.

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: MALBOSIA

Yeah I saw tens of thousands of people in the street I naturally assumed they were all CIA agents?

In Crimea?

What are we talking about here?

He's talking about maiden obviously people don't risk their lives by the thousand without issues already being their. This was in the making for years it was all just coming to a head because Yanochovich was under investigation for fraud. He was going to jail long before people hit the streets. His administration failed miserably all the while stealing money from Ukraine. One the public found out about his millions he stole it was all over. He was going to go to jail had he not fled the country.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Like I said, I would be happy if they were really independent. They are now under Russian control. That is not exactly independance now is it.

This has just made the same conditions for prolonged war that this little peninsula has caused for centuries. The only thing is that we are in the modern world and the wars are a little worse....

I say EVERYONE get the hell out of there....or just leave them alone in the Ukraine until more time passes and Europe can recover from its insistence on war over land.

EDIT TO ADD:
Also, the Ottoman empire gave more in defence of Crimea in 300 years than Russia did in 170...

The white army defended Crimea from the Red army.....should we ask what Russians gave lives for who?

This is a strategic move...not a moral high ground in sight.

This peninsula is just good for military purposes and commercial shipping. Thats it. Russia couldnt give a damn about the people there in.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Well as far as historic ties...tell me of any part of Europe without "historic" ties to other parts.

Places on earth like europe and the ME are replete with historic ties all across the board. If you want to get technical, Crimea has then ties to Greece, Rome, Venice, and other now long dead empires. Are we now going to consider giving back those Greek colonies?

AND actually Crimean Tartars sacked Moscow in 1571 and burned everything except the kremlin....so the historic ties goes both ways..not just as friendly brotherly love between two peoples.

They are not Russian. They are Crimean.

EDIT TO ADD:
Russia controlled Crimea for 170 years more or less. The Ottoman empire controlled it for over 300 years....Your choice of historic selectivism is interesting. The Golden horde also controlled it for a while...want to get them in the mix?

Actually Stalin forced the tartar people out of crimea into work camps in siberia. Obviously since their forced relocation they took their land. Wasn't until Ukraine took it over that Tartar communities felt safe returning to their homeland.

a reply to: dragonridr

Yeah, Russia deported many hundreds of thousands of them out of their historic homeland.

Russia didnt care about the Crimean Tartars. They were deported because they were accused of collaborating with the Nazis when they were under German control during WW2...REALLY, They just werent submissive enough to Russians as Stalin would have liked. There is also a historic grudge to all this. Russia has a hard on for Crimea. The Tartars have always given Russia hell.....Those are the historic ties I am seeing.

An entire people were kicked out of their land. The Ukraine was starting to heal that wound....but it looks like eastern Europe will plunge the rest of us into war...AGAIN....

EDIT TO ADD:
When war does happen thanks to all this like ALWAYS....remember what happened to American Nazi supporters. There is a difference between supporting this crap in times of peace and doing so in times of war...or the memory people have during times of war.

Just saying. Get real people.

a reply to: dragonridr

Yes it was in the making for years, Soros was already involved since `89.


Once the ultra nationalists groups started with the protests after given the signal to do so, others joined them because they wanted Yanochovich also gone.

But the deal to get a Government of national unity was done so there could be new elections, but there had to become war in the Ukraine and so a US planned coup took place.

a reply to: tadaman

Mexico can have California.
The Crimeans like it or not,want to align with Russia. That is their right to do so.The people have spoken and aren't sorry for doing it either.

originally posted by: tadaman
Well as far as historic ties...tell me of any part of Europe without "historic" ties to other parts.

I'm not talking about 'historic' ties. I'm talking about a massive influx of native Russians into Crimea. Tatars being stripped of their land. The entire peninsula's economy being completely controlled by Russians. This was planned and organized by Russia.

Sorry, I hope people seek out more info on Crimea than what your telling them from the books you've read.