Which Came First, Man Or The Universe? (Dare to believe!)

When a tree falls with no one to hear does it make a sound? No. Quantum physics has demonstrated that the observer creates realty. I would say it went in this order:

1) Observer, or Consciousness, was self-manifest, i.e. alpha-omega.
2) Created environment.
3) the Observer, which was pure spirit, incarnated as human.
4) human became enthralled in material world, now we're all lost in our own creation.

If you are simply tethered to the "machine" your mind is still your mind, dying would be like waking from a dream.

What's the purpose for that? Just connected so the machine can see our thoughts?

However, if your part of something's mind creating all of this, dying would be like going to sleep (I would think anyway) because then you would be just a memory.
Cheers - Dave

If I'm part of someone's mind, then I have a life of my own. Think about this: A new thought in your mind causes your brain to make a new brain cell to store that thought. Even if you stop thinking about that subject the brain cell still is there (has a life of it own). It has free will, because you can't kill a thought (you may forget it, but doesn't mean is dead). It will die as time pass by.

originally posted by: Abednego

If I'm part of someone's mind, then I have a life of my own. Think about this: A new thought in your mind causes your brain to make a new brain cell to store that thought. Even if you stop thinking about that subject the brain cell still is there (has a life of it own). It has free will, because you can't kill a thought (you may forget it, but doesn't mean is dead). It will die as time pass by.

Sounds a lot like Hermetic Philosophy. Apparently we are participants of a Divine Mind in which we get our own life. The point of life, they say, is to reunite with the Divine Mind through transmuting your soul. Jesus talked about the same thing, same with Buddha, etc.

originally posted by: cooperton
When a tree falls with no one to hear does it make a sound? No.

Not only that, your example is that of a hypothetical tree. And as far as I know, hypothetical trees can't make a sound at all.

Sounds a lot like Hermetic Philosophy. Apparently we are participants of a Divine Mind in which we get our own life. The point of life, they say, is to reunite with the Divine Mind through transmuting your soul. Jesus talked about the same thing, same with Buddha, etc.

We acquire that by getting aware of ourselves. Consciousness is the key, so when this body die, we can still be aware in the other side.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: cooperton
When a tree falls with no one to hear does it make a sound? No.

Not only that, your example is that of a hypothetical tree. And as far as I know, hypothetical trees can't make a sound at all.

HAHA! yes.

originally posted by: Abednego

Sounds a lot like Hermetic Philosophy. Apparently we are participants of a Divine Mind in which we get our own life. The point of life, they say, is to reunite with the Divine Mind through transmuting your soul. Jesus talked about the same thing, same with Buddha, etc.

We acquire that by getting aware of ourselves. Consciousness is the key, so when this body die, we can still be aware in the other side.

Yeah, like a spiritual birth from the human mind. We are like caterpillars destined to become butterflies, but everyones so caught up in their life as a caterpillar (material life) that they do not undergo metamorphosis, explained in John 3:

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."

Also, apparently fasting (abstaining from food, but drinking water) hastens the soul's ascent, because you are essentially releasing your material anchor. This is why Buddha fasted for 49 days before reaching enlightenment.

The fact that the elements that make up the human body were first formed inside of a star billions of years before our solar system was formed is about as much evidence one should need to explain that the universe, sun and planet were all here before humans.

And yes, I said evidence, not proof, because there is no such thing as absolute proof, even though creationists and evolution deniers are always demanding it. For that, you would have to observe every event in the history of the universe. Thats why scientists use inductive reasoning, as opposed to absolute proof to arrive at conclusions. It's a probability thing. As in, I can't prove gravity exists, and there is always some astronomically tiny possibility that i will suddenly be able to fly, but I'm certain enough that I will die if i jump out of a ten story building.

Thats my idea of faith. Trusting my reason. Believing that i cant fly and that this wonderful planet won't suddenly spew me into space!

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: HD3DSURROUNDSOUND

The universe. End of discussion. Humans can't survive in 99.999999999% of the universe. It is a FAR cry to reason that the universe was made for us.

Not to mention, evolution doesn't stop. Humans will evolve into further species given the opportunity (basically if we don't destroy ourselves first).

Your argument is just a rehash of the standard religious idea that humans are special in a universe that says overwhelmingly that we aren't special. It is just an egotistical look at our species.

I agree with part of what you said but disagree with the other.

The universe was obviously created before humans. There are simply too many stars, space, and planets for this to be for us. We're the newcomers to something magnificent that's existed long before we were thought of.

However, humans are definitely special. Of all the millions or billions of species to have ever lived on our planet, how many are able to grasp physics and the creation of our universe? Our capacity to learn & constantly improve what we learn is absolutely special.

With that said, even though I'm a Muslim, I definitely believe there is other life out there. As vast as our galaxy alone is, I'd be more surprised if there was no other intelligent life out there. Then again, maybe they're intelligent enough to avoid us & our destructive impulses.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: HD3DSURROUNDSOUND

The universe. End of discussion. Humans can't survive in 99.999999999% of the universe. It is a FAR cry to reason that the universe was made for us.

Not to mention, evolution doesn't stop. Humans will evolve into further species given the opportunity (basically if we don't destroy ourselves first).

Your argument is just a rehash of the standard religious idea that humans are special in a universe that says overwhelmingly that we aren't special. It is just an egotistical look at our species.

I agree with part of what you said but disagree with the other.

The universe was obviously created before humans. There are simply too many stars, space, and planets for this to be for us. We're the newcomers to something magnificent that's existed long before we were thought of.

However, humans are definitely special. Of all the millions or billions of species to have ever lived on our planet, how many are able to grasp physics and the creation of our universe? Our capacity to learn & constantly improve what we learn is absolutely special.

So? There are animals in the animal kingdom that can do things naturally that are pretty remarkable as well. Besides. In the grand scheme of things, does understanding physics really matter? Sure it can make our lives easier through technology, but that is a convenience thing. It isn't necessary to survive. To evolve. It's just a distraction to entertain us while we wait to die.

There is something else to consider as well, the universe is vast. Chances are that another species has evolved elsewhere to at least grasp the same parts of physics as we have. Granted, we have no evidence that one exists, but it is a prediction that we feel is pretty true given the size of the universe and its age.

With that said, even though I'm a Muslim, I definitely believe there is other life out there. As vast as our galaxy alone is, I'd be more surprised if there was no other intelligent life out there. Then again, maybe they're intelligent enough to avoid us & our destructive impulses.

If life evolves in the rest of the universe just like it evolves here on earth, then it is safe to say that any other rational thinking species would be just as destructive as we are. Most of our destructive impulses come from the basic fight or flight response which is essential to survive.

originally posted by: cooperton
When a tree falls with no one to hear does it make a sound? No. Quantum physics has demonstrated that the observer creates realty. I would say it went in this order:

1) Observer, or Consciousness, was self-manifest, i.e. alpha-omega.
2) Created environment.
3) the Observer, which was pure spirit, incarnated as human.
4) human became enthralled in material world, now we're all lost in our own creation.

What about the animals near the tree? They'd surely hear it. And so would any other lifeform that can detect sound or vibrations, since "sound" is simply vibrating air.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

It can be argued that "sound" is the electrical impulses that are sent to your brain after the nerves in your ears are stimulated by vibrating air. Therefore if a tree falls, and nothing is there to hear it, it doesn't make a sound.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I think you missed my point. My point is that humans have the ability to think & create things on a level which definitely makes us special. Special doesn't mean omniscient, omnipotent, or infallible. I believe all lifeforms are special in their own ways, and there are many species that have incredible skill sets. But to deny the special & unique skill set of humans is preposterous.

Are humans the fastest runners? Of course not. But our special skill of "gadget making" allows us to make vehicles which can greatly exceed the speed of sound, easily faster than any other creaute. That makes us special. Are we the physically strongest creatures? Not even close. But our special skill of "gadget making" allows us to make tools that can easily lift multiple tons of materials. And what other creature can send gadgets to other planets, and have those gadgets send back invisible waves which can be converted into pictures? I'd love to hear your response. Face it, we're special.

And no, I don't think all "intelligent" life would be destructive like us. I've been around far too many other intelligent lifeforms on Earth that aren't genocidal maniacs like we are, like cows, goats, and chickens. Though to be fair, as much as I love cats, they'll kill almost anything that moves if it's a certain size.

And no, most of our destructive impulses come from our greed & unwillingness to share. There are more than enough resources on this planet for everyone to share them and survive. But humans will always find an excuse to kill each other. Be it skin color or ethnic group, where we were born, what we think or believe, and even simply because the other side can't fight back. Some leaders even conduct wars & genocides to distract their domestic audience from their failed internal policies. There's nothing civilized or intelligent about that. It's glorified savagery.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

No, that's "hearing". Sound is simply the vibrations in the air. Human bodies detect those vibrations through the hair follicles in our ears and our eardrums, which both vibrate as a result of the vibrations in the air. And once they've been detected, our nerves create the electrical impulses which reach our brain, are processed, and result in us "hearing" the original sound. So the sound would exist whether there's anything there to "hear it" (process it) or not.

Though not all animals detect air vibrations just through hearing. Some can also feel those vibrations, which is why we also feel thunder if it's too close to us.

a reply to: enlightenedservant
Vibration happens but if there is no ear then it will not be made into sound.
If there is no feeler then there can be no vibration felt - so it would just stay as vibration and not sound.
The pulsating waves have to have a landing zone - imagine a tree falling in a wood and you were just in ear shot - you would hear it, but if you were outside of ear shot the ripple would have smoothed out so there would be no sound heard. Unless the waving is waving it won't be heard.
Just what came to mind on the 'Tree falling in a wood' debate.

a reply to: enlightenedservant


Slavery-
N ewly Discovered Wasp Species Enslaves Spiders
Slavemaking Ants

*also for extra fun* Slave Revolt-
How Ant Slaves Overthrow Their Masters

Murder-
Bottlenose Dolphin: The Only Marine Animal that Kills for Fun
Chimpanzees murder for land

Rape (and uh... infanticide)-
Animals Can Be Giant Jerks

War-
Battles among Ants Resemble Human Warfare
Looting, Cannibalism and Death Blows: The ‘Shock and Awe’ of Ant Warfare

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I just said it could be argued as such. Clearly the debate still rages on.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: enlightenedservant
Vibration happens but if there is no ear then it will not be made into sound.
If there is no feeler then there can be no vibration felt - so it would just stay as vibration and not sound.
The pulsating waves have to have a landing zone - imagine a tree falling in a wood and you were just in ear shot - you would hear it, but if you were outside of ear shot the ripple would have smoothed out so there would be no sound heard. Unless the waving is waving it won't be heard.
Just what came to mind on the 'Tree falling in a wood' debate.

Once again, that's the difference between "hearing" and "sound". Hearing requires a "receiver", but sound only requires a source. The sound will exist as long as there is air, water, or ground to carry the vibrations.

A better example would be: If a tree fell and only a deaf person were near it, would it make a sound? Of course it would. But the deaf person wouldn't be able to hear it because their "vibration receivers" don't work.

Another example is: If an animal squeals at 30,000 hertz, would it make a sound? Of course it would and many other animals would hear it. But human ears can't usually perceive more than 20,000 hertz, so normal humans wouldn't hear anything at all.

Just stating the difference between the "vibration creator (sound)" and the "vibration receiver (hearing)".

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: enlightenedservant


Slavery-
N ewly Discovered Wasp Species Enslaves Spiders
Slavemaking Ants

*also for extra fun* Slave Revolt-
How Ant Slaves Overthrow Their Masters

Murder-
Bottlenose Dolphin: The Only Marine Animal that Kills for Fun
Chimpanzees murder for land

Rape (and uh... infanticide)-
Animals Can Be Giant Jerks

War-
Battles among Ants Resemble Human Warfare
Looting, Cannibalism and Death Blows: The ‘Shock and Awe’ of Ant Warfare

Oh I'm not arguing that animals can't be violent or brutal. I even gave the example of murderous cats that will kill virtually anything within a certain size if it moves. So I agree with that point.

But these examples don't nullify or even address my points about the special skill set and status of humans. Nor the fact that other intelligent life in the universe could or would be more civil or sharing than us. I firmly believe that. In fact, I believe the next version of hominids will evolve without our destructive impulses. It will be like modern humans, if we didn't have the desire to compete with each other, but instead only had impulses to help each other.

a reply to: HD3DSURROUNDSOUND

What came first man or the universe?

Woman.

In the form of the great mother goddess, giver of life and vessel of creation.

originally posted by: Abednego
We fit perfectly into this environment, because we are part of it.

In the bible God made man from the dust (dust, ground, dirt,...), dust means "adama", that's why is the name for the first man. Meaning that we are created from anything else. (sorry, God did not created man, He made it)
We as humans are an evolved form of life, suited for this planet.


The universe came first. Your line of thought is a very centralistic one, and we are not the center of the universe.

That can be interpreted as stardust - as we are all made of this anyway as is everything else.
Magic dust!