Enemies In Our Midst: Think the Patriot Act is Bad? Take A Look At This

Originally posted by jsobecky

Not a very original comeback, TrueAmerican. And your implication that you are the only "freedom loving people with a sovereign constitution" is sadly mistaken and divisive. Our country was built on dissent and discussion, not divisiveness. We need healthy discourse and debate. We don't need hostile partisanship.

Funny we all loving "freedom people" like you said so I guess you agree that our problem is the present incumbent in the with house. Right?

He and his policies has divided this country to the point of having Americans going against Americans when it comes to his views. Right?

But that is ok Bush loving followers will be protected under the patriot act, while the rest of us will become the enemy.

Ummm, Marg, you are aware that ifin' Mr. Kerry would have been nominated as President that the Patriot Act would have remained as 'is', that the Intelligence Reform Bill still would have been passed and inacted, and that the Patriot II would still be pushed?

Oh yeah, thats right, we're dealing with the "here and now" and he didn't get elected, so its back to the ole' "It's Bush's fault" dictums....



seekerof

I'll repost this here since it killed the last thread:

Fact: This legislation was damn near unanimously passed by the Senate.

Fact: This legislation had 183 Yea votes as opposed to 8 Nea votes amongst Democrat members of the House.

Fact: The sole opposition to this bill was from House Republicans, 67 of them voted against it.

Fact: The Bill was co-sponsored by Joe Lieberman.

These don't really pertain to the thread discussion, but it's part of the big picture im going to try and paint:

Fact: The amendment [National ID] in question was added by John McCain who is far from a friend of the Bush White House and can barely be considered a Republican.

Fact: The ground works for a national ID was laid during the Bill Clinton administration:

Source
The establishment of a "national" drivers' license and birth certificate makes a mockery of the 10th amendment and the principles of federalism. While no state is "forced" to accept the federal standards, is it unlikely they will refuse to comply when such action would mean none of their residents could get a job, receive Social Security, leave the state by plane, or have access to medical care. So rather than imposing a direct mandate on the states, the federal government is blackmailing them into complying with federal dictates.

To overcome this "federalism" issue, in May 1998, Bill Clinton issued Executive Order 13083, "Federalism," which substantially redefined federalism as envisioned by our Founders, and the authors of our American Constitution. Set to become law on August 14th, EO 13083 mandates broad "exceptions" to those powers enumerated in the 10th Amendment, and justifies the abrogation of those powers by the federal government. A few of those exceptions are: "When there is a need for uniform national standards..." "When States have not adequately protected individual rights and liberties..." "When decentralization increases the costs of government..." "When States would be reluctant to impose necessary regulations..." and, "When placing regulatory authority at the State or local level would undermine [federal] regulatory goals..." Quite handy when he institutes National ID cards.

Now for those of you that want to sing the same song about Bush and cabals and dictators and Neo Cons and evil Republicans ad friggin nauseum you're denying the fact that THIS ISN'T A PARTISAN ISSUE!!! :bnghd: We've been treading down this path for quite some time. The only way that any thing will ever change in this country is when we're voting for "not" someone it's the Democrat and Republican candidates we're not voting for. Instead of choosing a side we need to choose what's right.

On the issue of Americans not knowing whats going on behind our backs: why do you think there's all kinds of uproar on message boards like this about it? Do you see Canadians complaining about their "draconian" anti-terror laws? Do you see people from the UK worrying about the ID thats much closer to realization there than here? Not really. While the European "benign" nations (and their commonwealths) slip quietly into submission with nothing but a board with a nail through it Americans will be fighting it tooth and nail with the guns we didn't give up.

I got through that without cursing. /Pats self on back.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Ummm, Marg, you are aware that ifin' Mr. Kerry would have been nominated as President that the Patriot Act would have remained as 'is', that the Intelligence Reform Bill still would have been passed and inacted, and that the Patriot II would still be pushed?
seekerof

You don't get it Seekerof, what make you so sure that I am a Kerry follower or not, I care less right now what Kerry is doing, at the time of the election he was to me better candidate than Bush, heck anybody could have done the job just the same.

I have not loyalties to political parties, get it, not loyalties all I wanted was the bad apple gone and did not happen, so why you thing that I am still pro kerry?

I tell you what, I am against the present administration and its policies and that is that.

Ummm, I guess you missed what I was trying to say OR what PistolPete presented and his mentionings indicate?



seekerof

As I understand it, the bill, as passed, contains no provisions for a national ID, but rather, it puts pressure on the States to adopt uniform Driver's Licenses and State IDs.

I can't deny that there is currently an erosion of rights, but as someone who has spent years and many, many dollars fighting for the Second Amendment, the current compromises are not very alarming to me.

The Constitution has not been nullified. The necessity for better security is real. The best way to get rid of the these bothersome acts and laws is to defeat the enemy who has precipitated these actions and then, let those whom we elect to office know that we expect our rights reinstated in full.

When you stop and think about the sacrifices that the WWII generation had to make during the war, the very little that is being asked of us is hardly worth discussing.

But, the best we can get going here it seems is relentless assaults on an Administration that has met the enemy head-on and taken the battle to their backyards, instead of our own. Then, of course, we have our neighbors to the north and across the sea who don't have enough to worry about so they spend their spare time bashing the nation under whose wing they frolic. With friends like these, who needs friends.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
The best way to get rid of the these bothersome acts and laws is to defeat the enemy who has precipitated these actions and then, let those whom we elect to office know that we expect our rights reinstated in full.

Defeat an enemy that may be within? And rights reinstated? I thought PA2 makes changes permanent. This thread mentions both PA2 and the new intelligence bill, so I figure this applies.

Why are Americans so ignorant as to what the government does behind thier backs? It's as if they were willing to sacrifice personal liberties, so the corrupt Bush could just become a passive dictator. The man should just admit that he wants to be a dictator.

To be fair on the American people Zero, a good percentage of them don't
know what is going on behind their backs, as is the same with a lot of
other peoples of the world.
Sadly not everyone is a member of ATS, or read alternative websites or
books.
I imagine a lot of people don't want to know the truth, interferes with
there way of life or whatever.
Unfortunately our way of life as we know it will be no more.

my 2 cents.

Originally posted by marg6043

Originally posted by jsobecky

Not a very original comeback, TrueAmerican. And your implication that you are the only "freedom loving people with a sovereign constitution" is sadly mistaken and divisive. Our country was built on dissent and discussion, not divisiveness. We need healthy discourse and debate. We don't need hostile partisanship.

Funny we all loving "freedom people" like you said so I guess you agree that our problem is the present incumbent in the with house. Right?

It does not follow.

But that is ok Bush loving followers will be protected under the patriot act, while the rest of us will become the enemy.

What you are saying is that the only people protected under the patriot act will be patriots, which are Bush lovers. Everyone else is not a patriot. Your words, not mine.

For once I am actually going to speak for Bush. I still despise him for the satanic murderer that he is. However, to blame the Patriot act, the National ID card, intelligence reform, solely on him, is irresponsible and unfair on this man; two wrongs do not make a right. As someone has pointed out already; these acts have been passed by congress.

Yes, Bush is the representative leader of the United States, but he alone does not own all the power. As usuall weare seeing the quintessential displacement of blame to absolve ourselves of the responsibility. In the end the it is our country, we are that the ones that comprise it, and if it were not for our collective ignorance and apathy, none of this would have materialized.

So let's all share the blame. Even I am going to share it, because so far all I've done is talk about it. Very few people walk. Now that we've established that - let's do something to remedy it.

[edit on 20-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Why are Americans so ignorant as to what the government does behind thier backs? It's as if they were willing to sacrifice personal liberties.

Because the American people could care less about their personal liberties and freedoms anymore. They only care about being safe from "terrorist." As my mom says and continues to say she willing to give up all of her freedoms just to be safe. I on the other hand am the complete opposite. I'd rather live in freedom than in fear.

no, none of this is Bush's fault.

Keep telling yourselves that.

Keep lying to yourselves until the very end- This all appears to be Clintons fault.

Lets see...the draft- Democrats fault
Patriot acts 1 &2, Clintons fault...

Its all damned Clinton.

*sigh* i cant believe any of this is happening.- I think we deserve everything we get- and MORE.

The glorious economy we enjoyed with Clinton was a mere figment of our imaginations- no wait...it was good because the previous president was a Republican..right? then along comes Clinton and messes it up for Baby Bush.

SO WHAT IF THE DEMOCRATS DRAW ALL THESE ACTS? As good Republicans, and as the most fabulous God fearing president on earth, dumbo Bush should be against them and tossing them out the windows. right? WHY DOESNT HE?
NO...theyre conviniently there at his disposal and he avails himself and signs off on all this crap...because he does what Democrats want?????
right-

You're not going to convince anyone too soon of this. sorry.-

Like i've said in the past- A year from now most Republican Bush voters will be denying they voted for this man

Anything happening now was started by the democrats...Nothing to do with Saint Bush- Nothing at all.

I dont know why i bother.

I simply cant wait for the draft: ANOTHER OF CLINTONS DOINGS

NOW- if you people were to tell me "the powers that be" are doing and planning, the sub government, whatever is in charge nowa days i might listen- But to flat out blame this entire government taking of our liberties solely on the democrats and Clinton is just enough to piss people off royaly.

Say something i can swallow, for Petes sakes.

Originally posted by dgtempe


no, none of this is Bush's fault.

Keep telling yourselves that.

Keep lying to yourselves until the very end- This all appears to be Clintons fault.

No, not his fault, he helped. Did you actually read what that executive order does or did you just see Bill Clintons name and get indignant? Keep telling yourself that you're in the right (or should I say left?) and this is simply an issue being pushed by Bible toting, Neo-Con, conservative Republicans despite all the evidence to the contrary. It's much simpler that way I guess - you don't have to question your beliefs.

Lets see...the draft- Democrats fault
Patriot acts 1 &2, Clintons fault...

Its all damned Clinton.

Since you can't see past right and left I'll have to spell it out: those examples were all used to show how this isn't a partisan issue with fault lying entirely on the Bush Administration.

There will be no draft. Not only that but the draft bill WAS SPONSERED BY CHARLIE RANGEL. He's as flamingly liberal as they come. The Patriot ACT II hasn't even been introduced as anything anywhere. But it comes in handy to speak of it as gospel truth when you want to make a point, huh?

*sigh* i cant believe any of this is happening.- I think we deserve everything we get- and MORE.

I personally never said that the Bush administration isn't doing some bad stuff. Nowhere did I say as such. You inferred it. I also don't see how ANYWHERE in this thread you can find that I said it was Bill Clintons fault (but the diatribe was nice). I pointed out how an Executive Order he penned MAKES IT MUCH EASIER TO PASS LEGISLATION ALLOWING A NATIONAL ID. Do you see the point I'm trying to make? That this goes to deeper levels than just those evil Christian conservatives? Why do you suppose he would draw that order up? Just for the # of it? He couldn't have had nefarious plans for it because he's was the Great Bill "Also Has Ties to Saudi Arabia" Clinton, right? Like I said, the minute we stop looking at this in right and left terms is the minute we win. Until people stop believing that their side is always just were going to keep on going down the same road. Do you really think that 9-11 wouldn't have happened with Al "Occidental Petroleum" Gore in the White House? Or the Patriot ACT? Or the National ID? Would John "Also Skull-n-Bones" Kerry have over-turned the Patriot ACT? Would the PAII vanish *poof*? If I thought John Kerry was a #in wizard I would have voted for him.

I voted Libertarian. I wrote my Senators and Representative about this bill. Did Hayworth, Kyl, or McCain receive any correspondence from you, dgtempe? Please, roll your eyes in exhasperation of the ignorant blind ones that say something you can't agree with so obviously must be some slack jawed Republican Mo-ron.

We've obviously been divided and conquered. No Bush supporter can believe that this stuff might be leading to a police state, and no Bush hater can see that it #in takes two to tango.

The Lesser of Two Police States.

All orderly societies are teetering on the brink of a police state. The one thing America has in its favor that no other country has had and that is our Constitution. That's why we shouldn't go futzing with it willy-nilly, especially the Second Amendment. Whatever legislation has to be passed in times of emergency can always be struck down on Constitutional grounds. The strength of America is its dynamism. Flexibility is our strength.



[edit on 04/12/21 by GradyPhilpott]

PistolPete,

After checking out your posts, and a little Anthony Gregory, I most definately see where you are coming from. And I like it. A lot. Gregory is to say the least very gifted, and an upcoming force to be reckoned with. I found nicely befitting your selection of Gregory's prose to enlighten the masses. Thank you. Seriously.

Originally posted by ms_Bhavn
Next there will be check point charlie's along every roadway... and Bush
will be declared ..an out of closet dictator. Go ahead come out of the closet!
We know you're in there.......

Some of your congressmen/women have already stated that technology
such as this would not be hard to implement expecially at toll booths and so
on and in fact it would not be hard to implement anywhere as these
monitoring systems are small and just scan the chip similiar to RFID
it can be done going under any oeverpass or bridge and can even be
done with just sensors in the road. so you may never know.

geo

My guess is that all of you who accept this don't realize what
you are accepting, there are provisions for search and siezure
without warrant and that includes your personal residence
this legislation is like driving a car into a brick wall but first
making sure that everyone has there seatbelt on. geeesh

I think that this would be a good time to start listening
to members who immigrated to the U.S. under these same circumstances
many of these recent immigrants have lived through this already that
is why they are here to escape the oppression from other places..

geo

Before the Pat act 1 or 2, I seem to remember children being burned alive and innocent 5 year olds being taken at gunpoint back to a communist country. Sound familiar to anyone?

I think we are all missing the point. On 9/11, our lifes changed forever. If some of the ideas introduced in PA 1 and 2 were in place, those attacks may not have happened. Intelligence refrom is needed.

This has nothing to do with the left or the right, or who is right or wrong. It is about protecting us from harm. Like said within this thread, these are issues that have been in debate for a while, and with the attack they were realized as needed on paper, not in theory.

I mean, How many 'innocent' American citizens have been pulled from their homes in the middle of the night?

The National ID card ?This is a big slush fund of money to create that network and database that will go to some large contractor.

I do not see that i am losing my rights as an American, or any of my freedoms because of my president. Now, Clear Channel is another story....

Originally posted by esdad71
I think we are all missing the point. On 9/11, our lifes changed forever. If some of the ideas introduced in PA 1 and 2 were in place, those attacks may not have happened. Intelligence refrom is needed.

This has nothing to do with the left or the right, or who is right or wrong. It is about protecting us from harm. Like said within this thread, these are issues that have been in debate for a while, and with the attack they were realized as needed on paper, not in theory.

So I guess the billions of taxpayers dollars spent every year on defense before 9/11 has been pretty much a waste. Wouldn't you say? Sorry esdad the PA 1 and 2 is nothing more than to keep us under survelliance and under control. It has nothing to do with catching terrorist.