Mandatory community service for grade school

While driving home today I was thinking about this. While growing up I attended private school, and part of the requirements for this school were that every semester each student had to complete 40 hours of community service in the form of volunteering work to either the city or local businesses. This came out to roughly 2 hours/week or 8 hours on a weekend once a month.

Then I got to thinking, this community service actually benefited me. It gave me some work ethic, it kept me out of trouble, it gave me something to do on the weekends, and it gave me a sense of community involvement that has stuck with me.

Is this something we should expect young people to do? If kids grow up learning to be active in their community, they will be more likely to be active as adults, which means they stay involved in local politics and the community is better off. Or, would such a system in a world where there aren't enough jobs to go around merely institutionalize slavery and shift jobs from paid adults to unpaid kids?

Is not the phrase "required to volunteer" an oxymoron?

If one doesn't "volunteer" as "required", what are the repercussions?

I don't think it is something that should be mandatory. Mandatory volunteerism is just.... weird.

But I definitely think that it certainly wouldn't hurt for parents to encourage their children to do something besides play video games and text. Children should be encouraged to help others/their community but not by the state and not by anyone other than a parent (unless its court ordered).

Idle hands and all that jazz. There are just some lessons that can't be taught and taking ones children into situations where they can see what good they can do for others isn't a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination.

a reply to: Aazadan

I think it builds character and is beneficial to everyone involved.

I don't really see a downside, but I am sure someone will find one.

a reply to: Aazadan

I think it's a great idea if applied properly and evenly in respect to the individuals ability and means.

We sure have enough entitled smartasses in the school system who love to argue semantics but rarely step to the plate when it comes time to perform altruistic action.

Count me in.

a reply to: paradoxious

More community service...

originally posted by: Aazadan
While driving home today I was thinking about this. While growing up I attended private school, and part of the requirements for this school were that every semester each student had to complete 40 hours of community service in the form of volunteering work to either the city or local businesses. This came out to roughly 2 hours/week or 8 hours on a weekend once a month.

Then I got to thinking, this community service actually benefited me. It gave me some work ethic, it kept me out of trouble, it gave me something to do on the weekends, and it gave me a sense of community involvement that has stuck with me.

Is this something we should expect young people to do? If kids grow up learning to be active in their community, they will be more likely to be active as adults, which means they stay involved in local politics and the community is better off. Or, would such a system in a world where there aren't enough jobs to go around merely institutionalize slavery and shift jobs from paid adults to unpaid kids?

They do this in Canada, I was absolutely disgusted by the demand that my kid work for free or he wouldn't get the credits to graduate. BTW, he was in the upper 10 percentile, so he was a good kid with a good work ethic. I find this kind of extortion to be, well, extortion and part of the socialist agenda to make everybody good little non-thinking specialized drones. Personally, I prefer people with a variety of skills that can think critically and operate alone if need be. But that isn't what the government wants in Canadakastan, they want people to be good little nuts and bolts in a great big machine and too be happy about it. Just makes me want to hurl chunks.

Yeah, ya team, at least until you have to deal with the weakest link.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: Aazadan

I get where you are coming from . But . Forcing kids to do something is sometimes counter productive . Good kids will grow up to be good adults in the majority of cases . The kids that would baulk at something like this more often than not need just a little more time to grow into the community spirit . There is no magic bullet . You need to want to do things like this .

originally posted by: Kangaruex4Ewe
a reply to: paradoxious

More community service...

Yep, the punishment for not doing service is more service.

No one else seems to get it.

a reply to: bobs_uruncle

See? That's why I feel like it shouldn't be mandatory. What about the children who have to work for their family business? Farming, helping take care of a terminally ill/disabled family member, working their own job, etc. Nobody should have the right to make your child work in order to graduate. The state didn't bring them into the world and forcing volunteerism on a child or you'll hold their degree hostage is stepping over the line a bit much IMO.

Again... I think volunteering is excellent. I think making sure your child knows there are folks a lot less fortunate than them is priceless. Letting them know that they have the power to make a difference is also priceless. Someone else forcing them to do it is a big no-no in my book.

a reply to: Aazadan

Egads, not more conscripted labor advocacy.

Sometimes I just don't know what to say.

originally posted by: paradoxious
Is not the phrase "required to volunteer" an oxymoron?

If one doesn't "volunteer" as "required", what are the repercussions?

Well, I suppose that would have to be defined. At the school I attended if you didn't complete your paperwork showing you did your service your grades would be withheld and you would be unable to register for the next semester or receive your diploma if you were graduating. So effectively you would be kicked out of school with no credit for that year (private school remember, so you would go back to public), your family would be out the tuition, you would have to retake your classes, and you would fail to graduate. Needless to say in the 4 years I was there, none of us ever heard of someone not get their hours done.

When I did mine it was for random things around town. I painted new school bleachers one semester, in another the town flooded and I was motivated (by getting my service in) to go out and fill sandbags to protect the local businesses. In another I helped to rebuild a park that the city had no budget to fix, but desperately needed it. In another I helped build a branch library for the town (my part was sorting and assembling the card catalogs... never was much for construction)

originally posted by: Kangaruex4Ewe
I don't think it is something that should be mandatory. Mandatory volunteerism is just.... weird.

But I definitely think that it certainly wouldn't hurt for parents to encourage their children to do something besides play video games and text. Children should be encouraged to help others/their community but not by the state and not by anyone other than a parent (unless its court ordered).

Idle hands and all that jazz.

There are just some lessons that can't be taught and taking ones children into situations where they can see what good they can do for others isn't a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination.

I get what you're saying about mandatory volunteering. To me that's just another word for slavery. However, I have to say that it was quite beneficial for me. I know some of the people I went to school with eventually found their college interests and majors from the varied work experience they got as part of these programs. One of the problems we have with people today is that we sell them on a college program, with the person having limited college/work experience. With that limited experience they have to make a choice, and 90% of the time they choose wrong going by the rate at which people change majors. Perhaps if we had programs in place that get them out and working a few different jobs that could be addressed. Maybe someone is going into business because it's a popular major but they really enjoy working with their hands? They can try that sort of job before picking a college class.

There's really no end to the types of work you can do. Which in a way is exactly the problem. One of the bigger debates over such a program I believe is what it does to our available jobs. We currently have a real unemployment rate of 33%. The jobs for people to do simply aren't out there. Adding volunteer positions just turns what was paid work that supported someone, into unpaid work that supports no one. Could the economy handle that? I know I've argued many times against programs that create below market value labor for precisely this reason. It's not fair to the person who is trying to earn a living and that's why I'm conflicted here.

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
They do this in Canada, I was absolutely disgusted by the demand that my kid work for free or he wouldn't get the credits to graduate. BTW, he was in the upper 10 percentile, so he was a good kid with a good work ethic. I find this kind of extortion to be, well, extortion and part of the socialist agenda to make everybody good little non-thinking specialized drones. Personally, I prefer people with a variety of skills that can think critically and operate alone if need be. But that isn't what the government wants in Canadakastan, they want people to be good little nuts and bolts in a great big machine and too be happy about it. Just makes me want to hurl chunks.

I didn't miss a day of school from 9th to 12th grade, never skipped a class, tested 99th percentile on all standardized tests my entire school life, and was called a prodigy by more teachers than I can count. I don't know if any of that means anything but some people sure thought I was smart. Why shouldn't smart people have to work too? I see this often that schools are indoctrination machines, but isn't that their job? They're supposed to provide people with the skills and mindset to get a job in the world. Jobs ultimately mean conformity. If anything I see people being exposed to more life experiences as giving them the tools to make better decisions about what they want to do in life. For some that's college, for others it's a different college program, and for others it's trades. Volunteering however gives the person more information with which to make those choices.

originally posted by: greencmp
Egads, not more conscripted labor advocacy.

Sometimes I just don't know what to say.

Normally I'm against things like this. In the type of economy that we currently have, where there is a major jobs shortage creating free labor only robs from those who are trying to sell their labor. I fully understand the ramifications of that. On the other hand we're talking 1 day a month on average (personally I would usually just binge out on it and work 10 hours/day for a saturday/sunday then be done for the semester). It's not enough to regularly effect the labor pool, but it is enough to get some things done and improve peoples communities.

I had thought this up today because I was considering volunteering somewhere local, and that brought back all the memory of my schools requirements. Being a decade removed from it now, I thought I could evaluate it pretty clearly and see if it did or didn't help me. In the end I think that it did help, and I think that it could help others.

I brought this up though because I'm conflicted about it. Despite the benefits to ones self and ones community there is a very fine line between being required to make your community a better place and slavery.

a reply to: Aazadan

Well yes, if this all happens at a private institution under contract with permission.

When the state compels you to labor, one must use the term slavery. I find myself arguing with socialists who tend to think of free market labor wages based on performance as tantamount to slavery so this is refreshing.

I don't see why it is even necessary to consider doing this in any way other than privately.

originally posted by: Aazadan
While driving home today I was thinking about this. While growing up I attended private school, and part of the requirements for this school were that every semester each student had to complete 40 hours of community service in the form of volunteering work to either the city or local businesses. This came out to roughly 2 hours/week or 8 hours on a weekend once a month.

Then I got to thinking, this community service actually benefited me. It gave me some work ethic, it kept me out of trouble, it gave me something to do on the weekends, and it gave me a sense of community involvement that has stuck with me.

Is this something we should expect young people to do? If kids grow up learning to be active in their community, they will be more likely to be active as adults, which means they stay involved in local politics and the community is better off. Or, would such a system in a world where there aren't enough jobs to go around merely institutionalize slavery and shift jobs from paid adults to unpaid kids?

I think you answered it yourself when you stated "Or, would such a system in a world where there aren't enough jobs to go around merely institutionalize slavery and shift jobs from paid adults to unpaid kids?"

Also, we shouldn't assume that children aren't already active in their communities or doing something productive. Who's to say they aren't already helping the community, helping their families w/sustenance farming, or the such? Or what if their parents want them to enjoy their childhoods because eventually they won't have the time to enjoy the smaller things in life? And more importantly, who would decide what types of community service are acceptable? And until what age (are you referring to 8yr olds, high school students, etc)? Are they going to paid for it, if it's a requirement? And what if they're 14 & are legally able to get a paying job? Does that exempt them from this requirement?

Ironically, I'm not completely against your idea. I love the concept of apprenticeships. And I did a full summer internship between my Junior & Senior years in high school. But I was also paid for it lol. So I think the kids should get paid for their work, especially if it's required. That can help them learn the value of money too.

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: Aazadan
While driving home today I was thinking about this. While growing up I attended private school, and part of the requirements for this school were that every semester each student had to complete 40 hours of community service in the form of volunteering work to either the city or local businesses. This came out to roughly 2 hours/week or 8 hours on a weekend once a month.

Then I got to thinking, this community service actually benefited me. It gave me some work ethic, it kept me out of trouble, it gave me something to do on the weekends, and it gave me a sense of community involvement that has stuck with me.

Is this something we should expect young people to do? If kids grow up learning to be active in their community, they will be more likely to be active as adults, which means they stay involved in local politics and the community is better off. Or, would such a system in a world where there aren't enough jobs to go around merely institutionalize slavery and shift jobs from paid adults to unpaid kids?

They do this in Canada, I was absolutely disgusted by the demand that my kid work for free or he wouldn't get the credits to graduate. BTW, he was in the upper 10 percentile, so he was a good kid with a good work ethic. I find this kind of extortion to be, well, extortion and part of the socialist agenda to make everybody good little non-thinking specialized drones. Personally, I prefer people with a variety of skills that can think critically and operate alone if need be. But that isn't what the government wants in Canadakastan, they want people to be good little nuts and bolts in a great big machine and too be happy about it. Just makes me want to hurl chunks.

Yeah, ya team, at least until you have to deal with the weakest link.

Cheers - Dave

I can imagine this working in Canada. But Canada doesn't have the huge social problems the US has.

My kid' s school does it. Five hours per year.

It can be anything in service of the community from collecting can goods to a toy drive to working a food bank. In fact, on his birthday, my son has had parties where, instead of gifts, his friends bring donations. Then, he adds to the collection with his allowance savings and goes to donate and help sort. We'll never forget how moved he was the first time he went...he just had no idea that people struggled so much. And he was floored by the gratitude of the food pantry manager, for even just the small scale donation he was making.

My kid and his classmates say they have learned something about people/communities and they're chock full of civic-minded ideas and opinions. Overall, very positive. And they haven't turned into communists yet. LoL!

a reply to: Aazadan

The key is self-motivation, and what I've seen, there are too many kids today that are extremely lazy. They would rather spend their days playing video games and texting on their cell phones. When half the kids in high school can't be responsible enough to bring even a pencil or pen to class let alone do their in-class assignments, taking 2 hours of their day-off to volunteer wold be like pulling teeth! Trying to get kids to volunteer for school projects is even depressing!

The response would probably go like this... F-that, I ain't spending my weekend volunteering for this sh-t. I'm hanging out with my homies.

Great idea, but again, I stick by this saying..."You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink."

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
They do this in Canada, I was absolutely disgusted by the demand that my kid work for free or he wouldn't get the credits to graduate. BTW, he was in the upper 10 percentile, so he was a good kid with a good work ethic. I find this kind of extortion to be, well, extortion and part of the socialist agenda to make everybody good little non-thinking specialized drones. Personally, I prefer people with a variety of skills that can think critically and operate alone if need be. But that isn't what the government wants in Canadakastan, they want people to be good little nuts and bolts in a great big machine and too be happy about it. Just makes me want to hurl chunks.

I didn't miss a day of school from 9th to 12th grade, never skipped a class, tested 99th percentile on all standardized tests my entire school life, and was called a prodigy by more teachers than I can count. I don't know if any of that means anything but some people sure thought I was smart. Why shouldn't smart people have to work too? I see this often that schools are indoctrination machines, but isn't that their job? They're supposed to provide people with the skills and mindset to get a job in the world. Jobs ultimately mean conformity. If anything I see people being exposed to more life experiences as giving them the tools to make better decisions about what they want to do in life. For some that's college, for others it's a different college program, and for others it's trades. Volunteering however gives the person more information with which to make those choices.

Nobody is saying that because one's grades are high they shouldn't have to work, good side stepping into another issue there LOL. The point I was making is "should a kid be forced to do volunteer work or be extorted out of their graduation" as in Canadakastan? I say no, this is not a prison camp or a labour camp. As far as your comparing indoctrination, as exists in our schools systems, to education (read training), I hope you're closer on the mark when it comes to bows and handguns LOL.

The education system indoctrinates kids into "groupthink." It doesn't teach them to think critically and problem solve. It does not teach them how to learn, it only teaches them how to parrot "groupthink." To give an example of how restrictive the school systems programming actually is, my son was accused of cheating on math exams because he could do all the complex math in his head without a calculator, as I had taught him. We had to go into the school and intellectually bitch slap the principle and a couple of teachers by showing them how stupid they actually were. I let them try to beat my son on math problems while they used calculators, they failed miserably, silly wabbits.

So, I say no to extorted labour to graduate. It can't be volunteer if there is a threat hanging over your head. If someone said to you that you had better volunteer to do X or we're going to take your house away, that you worked for, is that volunteering? This is just as stupid as the CRA (like the IRS in the US). They (CRA) say taxes are voluntary ROFLMAO, they say there is a social contract LOL, well, they have to show me where I ef'ing well signed this alleged contract so I can "torpedo" that bitch out of the water.

Cheers - Dave

Mandatory? No. Encouraged? Yes.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus


Mandatory? No. Encouraged? Yes.

I can sort of agree with that premise, encourage (reward), instead of force (punish).

Cheers - Dave