The Creationist Myth - 500,000-Year-Old Stone Tools, Butchered Elephant Bones Found in Israel

I want to know what testing they used to come up with 500,000 years..radiocarbon dating is good for 50,000 years back.

originally posted by: vonclod
I want to know what testing they used to come up with 500,000 years..radiocarbon dating is good for 50,000 years back.

Paleomagnetic and Archaeomagnetic Dating

Paleomagnetic dating can only date deposits that are hundreds of thousands to millions of years old. This is useful when studying early fossil hominids, but is not useful when studying modern human beings.

Radiocarbon dating is good for up to 60,000 years before there is hardly any radiocarbon left to get an accurate measure. So they were able to prove TWICE, at the very least, that the bones and tools are older than 60,000 years. The paleomagnetic results helped validate their actual age. Only if you're are a "believer" though.

How do you know that radiocarbon really works?

It is possible to test radiocarbon dates in different ways. One way is to date things that you already know the age of. Libby did this when he first developed the method, by dating artifacts of Egyptian sites, which were already dated historically. Another way is to use tree rings. Every year a tree leaves a ring, the rings increase in number over time until a pattern of rings is formed. Sometimes the tree has many hundreds of rings. Scientists can date the age of the tree by counting and measuring the rings. Radiocarbon daters can then date the tree rings and compare the dates with the real age of the tree. This is a very good way of testing radiocarbon, and we now know that there are some differences in radiocarbon dates and real time. Most of the time radiocarbon dating is accurate, but sometimes it is different from the real age by a small amount. Using a calibration curve, which is based on radiocarbon dates of tree rings over the last 10000 years, radiocarbon daters can correct for this problem.

We can also test radiocarbon by comparing the results with the dates produced by other dating methods, and there are many of those. These methods are completely different to radiocarbon dating and use different methods to provide dates. Some of the dating methods include Uranium/Thorium dating (dating coral etc), Thermoluminescence (pottery, sediments), Obsidian Hydration (obsidian), Electron Spin Resonance (teeth), Amino Acid Racemisation dating (eggshell, bones), and many others.

a reply to: eisegesis

Just out of curiosity, how do you think the universe began? You keep up this argument against creationism in the name of science, but science doesn't have an answer at all. Evolution is fine and dandy but doesn't explain the origin of the matter involved. The big bang leaves out where the bang came from. If matter is neither created nor destroyed, only changed in form, then where did the matter come from? Keep in mind this question deals with creationism itself, and not the Bible or Christianity.

The Creationist Myth - 500,000-Year-Old Stone Tools, Butchered Elephant Bones Found in Israel

irrelevant. the creation narrative does not nail down the time frame man was created. it does nail down the time a specific group of humans came into existence. It says mankind (ha adam) was created on the sixth day, that is true, but the word used for day is also used for non specific periods of time the greek version has aeons or epochs or periods of time or day and it is only by application of a biblical simile that is not always used that anyone can claim the day meant 1000 years. NT instances of Christ and the apostles quoting the OT use the greek version of the OT.

Adam; a specific man, (Ha eth Adam) is mentioned on what would have been the eighth day of creation two periods of time after mankind was created. At a minimum Adam came 2000 years after mankind and even then we don't know really if the day equals 1000 years thing is appropriate so biblicaly it could have been any amount of time. We do know the approximite time since adam the specific man to the present though.

even so there is no reason to suppose only humans can be tool users since everything from hermit crabs to octopus to crows to chimps do to this day. there is no reason to assume what is essentially a great ape and not much different from men could not also make more complex tools like flaked stones, pigments, ornamental jewelry and even huts or dwellings.

a reply to: eisegesis
Ok cool, I knew c14 wasn't applicable to this. I believe in science..keeping in mind it's not infallible.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I never said it was 100% accurate, all I said is that it gives us a good estimate on the age of things. The dating is not going to be hundreds of thousands of years off, it's not as inaccurate as you seem to think.

I think the biggest difference is that those who use radiocarbon dating admit it isn't 100% accurate, creationists do not admit to the same thing. There's a level of integrity and honesty that isn't mutual.

There is a growing group of people who deny traditional creationism, and the rampant ever changing controlled speculation of so called evolution as well; that are actually into finding out ALL of what is going on.

When they speak, YOU WILL HEAR.

Until then try and realize that the 2 political spectrums are both flagrantly wrong, and obviously not really controlled by those who want anyone to actually know the secrets of this planet or anything else.

But the truth will be found , and even SPOKEN in clear English and any other language, the process is being completed now, to expose the hideous truth and repair the ancient scum that is responsible for ALL delusion.

originally posted by: ParasuvO


There is a growing group of people who deny traditional creationism, and the rampant ever changing controlled speculation of so called evolution as well; that are actually into finding out ALL of what is going on.

When they speak, YOU WILL HEAR.

Until then try and realize that the 2 political spectrums are both flagrantly wrong, and obviously not really controlled by those who want anyone to actually know the secrets of this planet or anything else.

But the truth will be found , and even SPOKEN in clear English and any other language, the process is being completed now, to expose the hideous truth and repair the ancient scum that is responsible for ALL delusion.

Cough* Cough*
"You will hear, you will obey, we are your masters and anyone who disagrees with us is inferior life"

Listen to the nutters for far too long, sounds like another brainwashing attempt on the horizon, is the alien/spiritual new age invasion that close

i have heard your version of the new truth and its just the same old crap packaged in a new box, yawn

a reply to: borntowatch

BullS&*^%$

If you disagree with the dating methodology, then please let us know why it doesn't work. I'll forward your response to the authors of the article.

Uranium series dates from Qesem Cave, Israel, and the end of the Lower Palaeolithic
R. Barkai, A. Gopher, S. E. Lauritzen, A. Frumkin
Abstract
Israel is part of a geographical 'out of Africa' corridor for human dispersals. An important event in these dispersals was the possible arrival of anatomically modern humans in the Levant during the late Middle Pleistocene1, 2, 3. In the Levant the Lower Palaeolithic ends with the Acheulo-Yabrudian complex, characterized by technological developments4, 5, including the introduction of technological innovations such as the systematic production of blades and the disappearance of hand-axes. These reflect new human perceptions and capabilities in lithic technology and tool function6. Qesem Cave, discovered in 2000, has a rich, well-preserved Acheulo-Yabrudian deposit holding great promise for providing new insights into the period. Here we report the dates of this deposit obtained by uranium isotopic series on associated speleothems and their implications. The results shed light on the temporal range of the Acheulo-Yabrudian and the end of the Lower Palaeolithic, suggesting a long cultural phase between the Lower Palaeolithic Acheulian and the Middle Palaeolithic Mousterian phases, starting before 382 kyr ago and ending at about 200 kyr ago.

The chronology of the upper layers of Qesem Cave is based on
speleothems from the eastern section of the cave. These were
sampled with a cutting disk and their 230Th–234U dates were
measured by thermal ionization mass spectrometry (TIMS) at the
uranium-series laboratory of Bergen University (Table 1). After
conventional chemical preparation, mass abundances of natural U
and Th isotopes were measured against a mixed 236U–233U–229Th spike14
.
Ages were calculated with the aid of the TIMS–Age 4U2U
program15 and corrected for thorium detrital content, assuming an
initial 230Th/232 The ratio of 1.5 (ref. 16). Field relations indicate that
the ages were in correct stratigraphic order (Fig. 2). We identified
two main stages of speleothem deposition. The first, a massive
(about 25 cm thick) flowstone deposit, is dated by five ages (in kyr):
382 +/- 37, 300 +/- 13, 218 +/- 15, 218 +/- 16 and 207 +/- 12. This flow-stone covers the lower Acheulo-Yabrudian layers. A detached part of the flowstone, dated to 254 +/- 37 kyr ago, was redeposited in an archaeological breccia deposit, indicating that the breccia is
younger. A break in speleothem deposition occurred between
about 207 and 152 kyr ago. Within this period the latest human
occupation of the cave might have taken place, indicated by thin
archaeological sediment directly above the massive flowstone. A
second, short period of speleothem deposition took place about
152 kyr ago, represented by two ages of a calcite crust a few
millimetres thick, and small stalactites, dated to 152 +/- 3 and
152 +/- 7 kyr ago. The crust and the stalactites were deposited over
the archaeological sediments and can therefore serve as a terminus of human occupation.

a reply to: vonclod

Here's how it's done:

(Anyone who disagrees with the methodology, please post why it doesn't work - I'll forward it on to the authors for their response)

Uranium series dates from Qesem Cave, Israel, and the end of the Lower Palaeolithic
R. Barkai, A. Gopher, S. E. Lauritzen, A. Frumkin
Abstract
Israel is part of a geographical 'out of Africa' corridor for human dispersals. An important event in these dispersals was the possible arrival of anatomically modern humans in the Levant during the late Middle Pleistocene1, 2, 3. In the Levant the Lower Palaeolithic ends with the Acheulo-Yabrudian complex, characterized by technological developments4, 5, including the introduction of technological innovations such as the systematic production of blades and the disappearance of hand-axes. These reflect new human perceptions and capabilities in lithic technology and tool function6. Qesem Cave, discovered in 2000, has a rich, well-preserved Acheulo-Yabrudian deposit holding great promise for providing new insights into the period. Here we report the dates of this deposit obtained by uranium isotopic series on associated speleothems and their implications. The results shed light on the temporal range of the Acheulo-Yabrudian and the end of the Lower Palaeolithic, suggesting a long cultural phase between the Lower Palaeolithic Acheulian and the Middle Palaeolithic Mousterian phases, starting before 382 kyr ago and ending at about 200 kyr ago.

The chronology of the upper layers of Qesem Cave is based on
speleothems from the eastern section of the cave. These were
sampled with a cutting disk and their 230Th–234U dates were
measured by thermal ionization mass spectrometry (TIMS) at the
uranium-series laboratory of Bergen University (Table 1). After
conventional chemical preparation, mass abundances of natural U
and Th isotopes were measured against a mixed 236U–233U–229Th spike14
.
Ages were calculated with the aid of the TIMS–Age 4U2U
program15 and corrected for thorium detrital content, assuming an
initial 230Th/232 The ratio of 1.5 (ref. 16). Field relations indicate that
the ages were in correct stratigraphic order (Fig. 2). We identified
two main stages of speleothem deposition. The first, a massive
(about 25 cm thick) flowstone deposit, is dated by five ages (in kyr):
382 +/- 37, 300 +/- 13, 218 +/- 15, 218 +/- 16 and 207 +/- 12. This flow-stone covers the lower Acheulo-Yabrudian layers. A detached part of the flowstone, dated to 254 +/- 37 kyr ago, was redeposited in an archaeological breccia deposit, indicating that the breccia is
younger. A break in speleothem deposition occurred between
about 207 and 152 kyr ago. Within this period the latest human
occupation of the cave might have taken place, indicated by thin
archaeological sediment directly above the massive flowstone. A
second, short period of speleothem deposition took place about
152 kyr ago, represented by two ages of a calcite crust a few
millimetres thick, and small stalactites, dated to 152 +/- 3 and
152 +/- 7 kyr ago. The crust and the stalactites were deposited over
the archaeological sediments and can therefore serve as a terminus of human occupation.

@borntowatch and others who know zip about science, here's where you can buy a TIMS. Perhaps all you creationists can chip in to buy one and learn how science really works (what a concept). This could be a great summer project for those of you who have no concept how science is done.

www.thermoscientific.com...

Triton Plus™ Multicollector Thermal Ionization Mass Spectrometer Get high-precision isotope ratio measurements of your precious samples with the Thermo Scientific™ Triton Plus™ multicollector thermal ionization mass spectrometer (TIMS). With a proven thermal ionization source and a unique variable multicollector system that can be configured to suit the application, the Triton Plus TIMS system is ideal for dating of geological samples and control of isotopic compositions of nuclear materials. It does so with outstanding sensitivity, dynamic range, linearity, and stability. Contact Sales +1 800 532 4752 Submit a product question Contact Support +1 800 532 4752 Submit a support or service question - See more at: www.thermoscientific.com...

a reply to: Phantom423

Extremely thorough and well presented. Thanks, you just saved me a whole lot of typing as you covered all the bases spectacularly well.

a reply to: eisegesis
One of the key sentences in your post is "according to the Bible". There are other accounts of creation that are counter to the Bible and more plausible. There is a book about God, the Universe and our place in it called The Urantia Book and it has a very different account of the genesis of the human species.

Life is always purposeful and never accidental. Life was established on this planet by the agents of God in three separate inland seas. God's creative technique in time and space is evolution, progressive creation. Life began to evolve in these three centers. This eventually led to the appearance of humans.


Paper 62: The Dawn Races of Early Man (www.urantia.org...)

a reply to: peter vlar

You're welcome. The information is out there. But ignorance has an insidious way of creeping into the picture. Fight ignorance with real science. It's up to them to prove why objective science doesn't work.

a reply to: infolurker


thanks for posting the 12 minute YT video...

the task of illuminating one mind at a time...

Perhaps if/when Pope Francis decides to inform the Catholic populations that the planet was remade, reset, retrofitted, terraformed to coincide with the introduction of Adamic humans into the existing world

~~~ only with his say-so will the majority finally get the message that religion=> religious stories are a method to preserve the collective memory of a time when an intelligent Alien propogator of living biospheres went about the task of 'seeding' the planet Earth with mankind who are mere seed casings of a 'spiritual entity' which will be metamorphisized at a singular future time/date

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: babybunnies
Creationists will tell you that anything over 6,000 years old is put there by God to test their faith.

It's a ridiculous argument.

Or they'll use the tired old excuse that carbon dating is completely unreliable because, in their ignorance, they think that carbon dating is the only method used to determine the age of anything ever.

Before a somewhat-rational Christian gets their panties in a twist, I'm talking specifically about young-earth creationists here.

I agree with virtually all points so far.

As you said, one needs to distinguish between "young Earth creationists" and more generic creationists. For example, Hindus are creationists of a kind, but many of the Vedic texts posit humans as being around millions of years or more.

So, all finds like this do in isolation is dismiss young earth ideologies, such as literal interpretations of the Bible.

originally posted by: St Udio
a reply to: infolurker


thanks for posting the 12 minute YT video...

the task of illuminating one mind at a time...

Perhaps if/when Pope Francis decides to inform the Catholic populations that the planet was remade, reset, retrofitted, terraformed to coincide with the introduction of Adamic humans into the existing world

~~~ only with his say-so will the majority finally get the message that religion=> religious stories are a method to preserve the collective memory of a time when an intelligent Alien propogator of living biospheres went about the task of 'seeding' the planet Earth with mankind who are mere seed casings of a 'spiritual entity' which will be metamorphisized at a singular future time/date

BUt only Catholics would believe him, and probably not the conservative ones.

Many many protestant denominations already despise the Catholic Church and some even go as far to say it is evil/of Satan.

originally posted by: UB2120
a reply to: eisegesis
One of the key sentences in your post is "according to the Bible". There are other accounts of creation that are counter to the Bible and more plausible. There is a book about God, the Universe and our place in it called The Urantia Book and it has a very different account of the genesis of the human species.

Life is always purposeful and never accidental. Life was established on this planet by the agents of God in three separate inland seas. God's creative technique in time and space is evolution, progressive creation. Life began to evolve in these three centers. This eventually led to the appearance of humans.


Paper 62: The Dawn Races of Early Man (www.urantia.org...)

I own the Urantia Book. It was a tough read and worthy of it's own thread.

I share your sentiments.

a reply to: eisegesis

Even Enkhi is easily part of the possibility biblically. WE think of an entity that is above us who willed this into existance,who what I can't define such a being .I CAN say what we say about it is actually quite underrepresenting of what I think of that being. HE ,She or IT don't apply it's God.
ALL is in his creation. some would seek to hide the truth and we have yet to trully know it but I don't define it dogmatically ,AKA heretic ..I think.

a reply to: eisegesis

Hah! You claim to be scientific with that closed mind?
By arguing a moot point and ignoring the difference between
creationists and young earth creationists? I would point out
that any creationist worth his salt, knows damn well the
Bible makes no claims to a young earth. Because he wouldn't
be able to explain the obvious existence of a whole world
that thrived before this one. So your point is hokey and really
very ignorant.

Good luck trying to beat the Bible lady. Archeaology only supports it.
Among other scientific verifications.

a reply to: Phantom423
Good stuff, I knew there were other isotopes..just not knowledgable on it.