America - The Modern equivalent to the Ancient Roman Empire? Where do the poor and homeless fit?

I love history, so I have been watching documentary's about the Celts, Germanic Tribes, and the Roman Empire. Fascinating stories, but what really amazed me, is how much America emulates The Ancient Roman society and structure. Not just the Govt, but also the state of America's poor and homeless. www.youtube.com... There are also great BBC documentaries on Youtube.

It is true, the Ancient Roman Government was used as a template, when America created her Govt., so maybe our society is what evolves from that kind of leadership. And on most levels we have it pretty good here. But, corruption in our current Government, is like the theater of the Roman Senate. History does repeat itself. Most of our churches in America are Grandchildren of the HOLY Roman Empire.

The documentary's expose the dysfunction and flaws of the Roman system, and how and why it finally collapsed. What I see in America is scary similar. Like the Roman War Machine, it had to continue to conquer to maintain itself. It had to take more land, more booty to sustain the appetite of the Upper class. And a reason to continue to strangle the people for more "tribute" to pay for all the armor, horses and piles of food, clothing, shelter etc. to feed an army. All the while breeding contempt and hatred for Rome.

They took the best land from the Celts and Germanic people, and then taxed them into complete poverty. Those that still had property could not meet their "tributes" (now its called taxes) with their crops. Not only did they starve, there was nothing left to barter or sell, to create wealth for their families, and in the end, they lost their property too. This has happened in America on a grand scale.

These tribes were labeled Barbarians and Wild. Because, their battle tactics were undisciplined. (crazy stuff like going to war naked) And their lifestyle was much different than the Romans. The tribes lived close to nature, and carved out self-sustaining existence. And by Romes account they were drunken Heathens. Unwashed, unkept etc. But, they just wanted freedom, to live how they wanted, and to be left alone by Rome. Much like our homeless today.

I see the homeless and those barely making it from paycheck to paycheck, in America, similar to the ancient Celts and the Germanic Tribes of Ancient Rome. So, many just want a chance to create a self sustaining lifestyle. To live free from the burden of modern society. Many have just collapsed under the weight of the Rules we dictate in our quest to civilize the world.

Our current Government owns almost 1/2 of California. And huge amounts of land in all states west of the Rockies. Much of it in National or State Parks which I agree with, however, with so many Park Closures wouldnt it be great if one of those parks could be given to the "Modern Wild Stray People" in the US. Let them create a place for themselves. Maybe, in the future they will have something the American Roman Empire, can extract as tribute, but for today, these people deserve a chance to build their Sherwood Forest. We have wild animal sanctuaries, why cant we have a wild people refuge? How many acres is reserved for the Turtle, or frogs or etc etc. In ancient biblical times there was a City of Refuge.

The purpose of this thread isnt to argue history, I am not a scholar, so it would be pointless. But, I would like to look for a solution for our Poor and homeless. Would this work? Why or why not? This would solve a lot of problems for a lot of people, not just the homeless. Rome didnt fix their problems, and we all know how that turned out.

Of course there is the flip side. No telling what would happen if "Wild Stray Americans" were to organize. They are some of the most creative people. And would gladly turn even a spot in the desert into a place of Refuge.

Its the same old "Bread and Circuses" trick all over again

"Bread and circuses" (or bread and games) (from Latin: panem et circenses) is metonymic for a superficial means of appeasement. In the case of politics, the phrase is used to describe the generation of public approval, not through exemplary or excellent public service or public policy, but through diversion; distraction; or the mere satisfaction of the immediate, shallow requirements of a populace, as an offered "palliative." Its originator, Juvenal, used the phrase to decry the selfishness of common people and their neglect of wider concerns. The phrase also implies the erosion or ignorance of civic duty amongst the concerns of the commoner.

source

Deja vu ?

In modern terms, i guess you can call it "Foodstamps and TV"

Ohh and take a look around Washington DC, see any Roman inspiration?

ETA:

Sounds like squatting or homestead. If that is even allowed anywhere in the U.S. I seem to remember that you have to make land improvements, like build a home, then pay taxes on it. Not really possible for people with nothing to work with.

a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

Im sure there are hundreds of rules that would disqualify the poor from making a home for themselves. And of course, it all goes down to money.

a reply to: misskat1

This is already happening on Federal land. The homeless people who are tired of the police telling them "You can't stay here", move out to the country.....which includes federal land.

Park Rangers may catch them, but it takes alot longer for that to happen then if they were in the city.

a reply to: misskat1

America or The United States of America?

a reply to: Taupin Desciple

Very good to know.
However, without permission to stay there, it must cause these folks to live in a hyper vigilant state. Sleep with one eye open, and still not be able to own a goat or plant a tomato. But, I am glad they are making use of the national forest. It has to be safer than on the streets of a big city.

JFYI my brother was convicted of "felony Camping".. And spent 30 days in county, because he was caught camping 3 times on federal property. Im really not making that up. He also died homeless on the streets of San Francisco from pneumonia. He was a wild stray kinda guy.

a reply to: Trueman

Opps, your right not the whole North America, just the United States of America.

wouldn't it be great if one of those parks could be given to the "Modern Wild Stray People" in the US.

You've never read "A Brave New World" have you?

a reply to: misskat1

I think the future for these people is in tiny houses with eco friendly power. They have to go somewhere,you can't just tell a homeless person to "move along". In time there is no where to go to anymore.Then they get angry and bad things happen.As far as I am concerned,as long as there are homeless people on the streets,we are no better than a 3rd world nation. With all of our technology,money,land.There is no reason for people to be living on the streets.

a reply to: Dimithae

I love the tiny house concept www.nbcnews.com...

a reply to: smkymcnugget420
I have not read that book, I will check it out.

The similarities are even closer than most think. One of the more interesting ones.
The Romans idolized their chef's too(Bam!!!). It's a true sign of a decadent society, to worship food and the creators of said foods. It's also a sign of a failing society, comfort food keeps the mind docile and complacent. Have you ever seen a sad or mad person eating cheese burger? Look at Ronald Mcdonald!!

I'm positive the establishment think homeless people belong in one of three places.
Jail
The gutter
The grave

How can you write a homeless person a ticket for J-walking or sleeping on the curb fully knowing they have no means what so ever to pay it? From my understanding a vast portion of the homeless are mentally disabled. Rather than putting the mentally disabled in an institution to be cared for in the 80's and early 90's the government closed almost all of the mental institutions. Putting the burden on the people, law enforcement, and the city. Look at skid row in LA for an example.



I agree with Dimithae. But I believe there is already enough housing for these people. Plenty of vacant houses still. Rather than let the house fall to dismay put one of the 50,000 homeless vet's in there as a caretaker of sorts. If they do the maintenance, increase the value, and are sane/sober they can stay. It's insanity to have thousands of houses vacant and this much homelessness.

a reply to: JAY1980

I read somewhere recently that there are more empty houses than homeless people, its disgusting. Its so terribly sad. We treat animals better. Ive watched several vids of people finding a junk yard dog, that looks like death, taking it in and healing the animal, It is really awesome to watch the transformation. And Im not begrudging healing animals, by any means, however, we have whole junk yard families of humans, who desperately need a safe, place to sleep at night.

I remember when Reagan stopped funding for the mentally ill, and Ive seen some real sad things because of it. I had a pizza shop for a lot of years, and regularly fed a few homeless vets, that were off their rockers. Very very sad. They would never readjust to living a normal American life. There should be a place set aside for our soldiers who cant find their place in our world. It might even help them heal.

The Govt owns about 50 million acres in California alone. 97% of California's population lives on 3% of the total land in Ca.
This is just wrong.

originally posted by: misskat1
a reply to: Taupin Desciple

JFYI my brother was convicted of "felony Camping".. And spent 30 days in county, because he was caught camping 3 times on federal property. Im really not making that up. He also died homeless on the streets of San Francisco from pneumonia. He was a wild stray kinda guy.

He must have stayed too long in one spot or didn't obey some of the basic rules for camping on public lands. I live in the Manistee National Forest area and it is my understanding that you don't need permission to camp out if you obey basic rules and stay a certain distance from the water then move on after I think 3 weeks. State land is different and you need a free camping permit, but the rules are basically the same. He must have been on land prohibited from camping or trashed up the place and stayed too long or broke some other basic camping rules. If not, I'd like to hear the details on how he got busted. Otherwise camping on federal land is OK without permission.

a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

Im sure your right, he probably broke a rule. I dont know all the details. This was in California. From National park website: The maximum stay in most campgrounds is 14 days with a 21 day maximum stay per Ranger District, per calendar year.
He probably stayed in one place too long.

There was a story a few years ago about how the US military was studying the Roman Empire, ostensibly to prevent us from collapsing like they did.

However, with all the immigration, corporate corruption, and half the country wanting to be barbarians I don't think our chances are very high.

One of my favorite interpretations of how Rome collapsed is they stretched beyond their means. It's not that controlling your citizens - within reason - is bad, that's part of governing and individual responsibility. But when you overstretch, you tend to overcontrol and overdo everything else until you simply fail to meet your requirements. I also think when a country is failing it has an automatic response to invest in its army or its defenses.

So basically technology and knowledge (and maybe genetics) allow a country to stretch. If you stretch beyond this allowance, it threatens to collapse.

So I think when we start making "colonies" on other planets, we may easily overstretch. And we might even be overstretching today.

I've read an abridged copy of The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire a few of times now and, in my opinion, was used for the establishment of the United States of America. Gibbon’s amazing 6-part historical study was written between the years 1776 and 1788.



When reading this abridged version, I had the distinct notion that Deja Vu is an apt descriptor for what is happening today.

From page 1,249 of the abridged version pictured above:

In a dark period of 500 years, Rome was afflicted by …sanguine quarrels …; and if much is has escaped the knowledge, and much is unworthy of the notice, of history, I have exposed in the two preceding chapters the causes and effects of public disorders. At such a time, when every quarrel was decided by the sword, and none could trust their lives or properties to the impotence of the law, the powerful citizens were armed for safety, or offence, against the domestic enemies whom they feared or hated.

(bolding mine)

a reply to: masqua

Good catch, I was so amazed by the similarities. I hope those in power will have enough common sense to see we are heading down the same path as ancient Rome. Im not too excited about going through another "dark ages", but the oppressive society that we have built isnt working, and if things dont change, it could be another "history repeating itself".