Nature's Law: Inalienable Rights vs Civil Rights; Constitutional Republic vs Democracy

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: greencmp

So ... money represents goods which have inherent value.

I'm with you. Now, in a society where everything has been privatized, where does the money [itself, i.e. the fungible currency] come from?

E.g., A gross way of looking at my question: does each producer of goods issue their own money?


Also, if you have another moment, a quick definition of what you mean by privatized ... just a functional one.

Ideally, it would be gold but, anything with intrinsic value. It is just a matter of how universally interchangeable that 'currency' is. It could be bartered goods, skills and labor but, that severely limits the utility and reallocatability of that particular unit of stored value. Black markets have a plethora of currencies from jeans to jewels.

Privatized just means not under state control, private property in the means of production is the favored term.

originally posted by: links234
Maybe I'm missing your point but, why can't we have both, equally? We have our natural rights that are equal to our civil rights.

Is there anything specifically preventing the government, as an extension of the people, from declaring additional rights that are outside the purview of 'natural' rights?' I was under the impression that this was declared in the 10th amendment.

Finally, we are a democracy. You clearly understand that we elect our representatives democratically which is the definition of a democracy. Power vested to the people who rule through freely elected representatives. We, the people, furthered that through the 17th amendment. We don't have national votes on individual laws because we give that specific power to our representatives. But this nation is a democracy nonetheless.

It isn't that positive rights cannot be recognized but rather, that they should not be.

The passage of the 17th amendment denied the critical power which state legislatures held in the senate and has paved the way for the perfectly legal, destructive and irrational overcommitment which has passed unchecked since.

a reply to: greencmp

Good. And thank you for indulging my questions thus far.

So, if everything that had been administrated by government at whatever level were now privatized, which means, for a few examples, we'd be paying private contractors for use of roads, the electrical/water/commuications grid, public safety including security, fire and emergency medical ... let's stop there although obviously to replace the current level of services managed by government would entail a much longer list of private vendors ... and gold is used as the currency of choice to represent our wealth (which is basically our individually produced goods) and which gold currency we would trade with these vendors for these services ... how is the actual physical gold money made and by whom? How is the quality of the gold guaranteed? Who sets its value in relationship to some standard of value for my goods?

What does "standard" even mean, in this context ... daily (hourly, minutely) market value alone?

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: greencmp

Good. And thank you for indulging my questions thus far.

So, if everything that had been administrated by government at whatever level were now privatized, which means, for a few examples, we'd be paying private contractors for use of roads, the electrical/water/commuications grid, public safety including security, fire and emergency medical ... let's stop there although obviously to replace the current level of services managed by government would entail a much longer list of private vendors ... and gold is used as the currency of choice to represent our wealth (which is basically our individually produced goods) and which gold currency we would trade with these vendors for these services ... how is the actual physical gold money made and by whom? How is the quality of the gold guaranteed? Who sets it's value in relationship to some standard of value for my goods?

What does standard mean, in this context ... daily (hourly, minutely) market value alone?

All currencies are subject to inflation and deflation.

Gold is mined which adds to the total amount in circulation which eventually causes inflation. Gold can be destroyed or otherwise removed from circulation which would cause a deflationary effect.

All public works are local anyway, only the organization and funding are provided top down so no one would be unable to continue using the bridges and roads though, each state would handle the question of private vs public services (roads, fire and constabulary) individually. All interstate highways are maintained by the federal defense budget.

Paper money is usually just simpler to use and electronic currency is widely accepted. There are some crypto currencies which hold promise as well. Frankly, the dollar itself is doing surprisingly well (which sucks for our exporters) but, the sooner we all diversify the better.

The only way to establish the price of a good or service is to conduct negotiations with the owner of the good or provider of the service.

The price which results from those equitable exchanges determines the price history for that good or service. While not predictive, the history of prices are major considerations in economic history.

It is actually the logical death blow that socialism has no way of making a value determination without a functioning liberal free market operating somewhere else to take cues from.

a reply to: greencmp

So, even with total privatization the local, State and Federal governments are still providing services?

I thought that total privatization meant that all services were not under state control. That would include all levels of government, right?

And would mean that nothing is left for government at any level to do, as those duties, services, etc. are now handled by private contractors?

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: greencmp

So, even with total privatization the local, State and Federal governments are still providing services?

I thought that total privatization meant that all services were not under state control. That would include all levels of government, right?

And would mean that nothing is left for government at any level to do, as those duties, services, etc. are now handled by private contractors?

If you want them to. Massachusetts spends $350 million or more on putting homeless people in motels every year. It spent $500 million on bicycle paths.

We do not need this sort of thing going on at the federal level. All you complainers should come to Boston, it should be a paradise based on the policy. Just don't expect to find enough work.

When it gets crazy, people move and take their productivity and their wealth with them.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Quick question: Where does "money" come from when "everything" is privatized?

Money can be made from any mutually agreeable medium. The important quality of money is that it should be fixed in amount so that improvements in productivity increase its value. This is the best form of Social Security.

A fixed money supply makes all economic reckoning easier for everyone-- and limits the amount of credit and therefore creates a natural interest rate. Limited availability of credit puts money in the most likely to succeed investments. The bust part of the boom and bust cycle is due to easy credit put into bad investment. Also limited credit increases the money controlled by successful businessmen who have made large profits by providing the consumers with the products that the consumers want the most, that is, the people who have shown that they can use it to good effect.

Money would come from money specialists. Money would be backed by wealth of some kind and would be limited in quantity to the value of that wealth. The pawn shop idea applied to anything a person might want to risk or sell could be a source of money. The actual transactions could be done with paper, coin, card, cellular, or internet like they are now.

Precious metals are a simple and dependable way to keep the money supply limited. However, as the economy grows and wealth through out society increases, precious metals might be used for products and become overly valued (scarce) as money.

a reply to: greencmp

Wait, what am I complaining about???

I'm merely asking you questions and formulating your answers into a logical framework.

My point of departure was this post of yours:

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
a reply to: greencmp

One positive right that has come to mind is the "right to an attorney"

The law should be quite simple, how else can it be obeyed? Do we need law of such complexity that lawyers are mandatory?

Murray Rothbard has some interesting ideas on local adjudication as he was forced to consider some of the details being so nearly an anarchist. Privatize everything but allow for appeal.

For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto

I have bolded the quote I'm inquiring about above.

So ... as I was saying, to me TOTAL PRIVATIZATION means just that ... nothing left for the local, State or Federal Government to do because everything would be handled by private vendors.

However, that still requires some kind of economy, and so far, you've allowed that money would continue to exist under such a system, that money representing individual goods (wealth) which presumably would be traded VIA THE EXCHANGE OF MONEY with others for needed goods and services.

All levels of Government are gone. Who makes the money? Each individual Vendor? Who sets the value of the money? Each individual vendor? We are talking about a totally FREE market here, right?

How does that work on an interstate level, for example? How does it work on an international level?

Or is the postulation that a village based economy is somehow best?

How will that ... unimaginable reduction in the scale of ... everything that goes on in our lives not result in wide-scale ... panic, discontent, animus, etc?

I really am trying to understand how this system would work as compared with any level of what we now have.

Is that what you mean by COMPLAINING? I really thought we were having a wonderful chat!

a reply to: Semicollegiate

Are your comments also referring to a society in which there has been total privatization?

And, would you consider a process of my asking questions and stating logical conclusions from your answers to be "complaining"?

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: greencmp

Wait, what am I complaining about???

I'm merely asking you questions and formulating your answers into a logical framework.

My point of departure was this post of yours:

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
a reply to: greencmp

One positive right that has come to mind is the "right to an attorney"

The law should be quite simple, how else can it be obeyed? Do we need law of such complexity that lawyers are mandatory?

Murray Rothbard has some interesting ideas on local adjudication as he was forced to consider some of the details being so nearly an anarchist. Privatize everything but allow for appeal.

For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto

I have bolded the quote I'm inquiring about above.

So ... as I was saying, to me TOTAL PRIVATIZATION means just that ... nothing left for the local, State or Federal Government to do because everything would be handled by private vendors.

However, that still requires some kind of economy, and so far, you've allowed that money would continue to exist under such a system, that money representing individual goods (wealth) which presumably would be traded VIA THE EXCHANGE OF MONEY with others for needed goods and services.

All levels of Government are gone. Who makes the money? Each individual Vendor? Who sets the value of the money? Each individual vendor? We are talking about a totally FREE market here, right?

How does that work on an interstate level, for example? How does it work on an international level?

Or is the postulation that a village based economy is somehow best?

How will that ... unimaginable reduction in the scale of ... everything that goes on in our lives not result in wide-scale ... panic, discontent, animus, etc?

I really am trying to understand how this system would work as compared with any level of what we now have.

Is that what you mean by COMPLAINING? I really thought we were having a wonderful chat!

Easy there fella, just pointing out that there are some very socialized places here in the united states to demonstrate the unviability of any particular social program.

I think you took that personally, it wasn't my intention, I am enjoying the chat too.

You seem to be hung up on the "no government" aspect of this. There is no need for a federal program to do what you want at the local level. You can have as much government as your heart desires, you just can't nationalize anything that isn't the responsibility of the federal government.

originally posted by: links234
Maybe I'm missing your point but, why can't we have both, equally? We have our natural rights that are equal to our civil rights.

Is there anything specifically preventing the government, as an extension of the people, from declaring additional rights that are outside the purview of 'natural' rights?' I was under the impression that this was declared in the 10th amendment.

Finally, we are a democracy. You clearly understand that we elect our representatives democratically which is the definition of a democracy. Power vested to the people who rule through freely elected representatives. We, the people, furthered that through the 17th amendment. We don't have national votes on individual laws because we give that specific power to our representatives. But this nation is a democracy nonetheless.

Positive rights require enforcement, and so would almost always clash with negative rights at some time or another.

Negative rights are envisioned as enabling growth of the economy, where as positive rights take the economy for granted.

Democratic, the adjective, is a dispersal of political power. Democracy, the noun, concentrates power in the most ruthless plurality, eventually -- and expands the scope of government to any behavior a human can perform.

a reply to: greencmp

Here's what you said in your last post:

All you complainers should come to Boston, it should be a paradise based on the policy. Just don't expect to find enough work.

How am I misunderstanding that reference to complaining other than as referring to me?

At any rate:

I'll have to come back to your "there are some very socialized places here ... to demonstrate the unviability [sic] of any particular social program" at a later time.

Isn't the "no government" aspect the core idea of your statement of "total privatization" (or at least that of Mr. Rothbard's book that you linked, which by the by, I'm reading as we chat.)?

If that's the "core idea" of what you're saying, then how is my focusing on that demonstrating a "hang up"?

No matter.

I still want to go back to my original though. In this system you're either promoting or presenting or at least sympathizing with ... what entity makes the actual physical gold coins/bars/sheets/rings/etc. that will serve as the physical representation of WEALTH (produced goods)?

No Federal, State or Local governments exist. Who makes the currency? Is there a Cold Hard Cash vendor? What happens when these guys/groups start competing with each other? How will there universal agreement on the value of these currencies? How would states or nations trade if everything happens at the local (village) level?

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: greencmp

Here's what you said in your last post:

All you complainers should come to Boston, it should be a paradise based on the policy. Just don't expect to find enough work.

How am I misunderstanding that reference to complaining other than as referring to me?

At any rate:

I'll have to come back to your "there are some very socialized places here ... to demonstrate the unviability [sic] of any particular social program" at a later time.

Isn't the "no government" aspect the core idea of your statement of "total privatization" (or at least that of Mr. Rothbard's book that you linked, which by the by, I'm reading as we chat.)?

If that's the "core idea" of what you're saying, then how is my focusing on that demonstrating a "hang up"?

No matter.

I still want to go back to my original though. In this system you're either promoting or presenting or at least sympathizing with ... what entity makes the actual physical gold coins/bars/sheets/rings/etc. that will serve as the physical representation of WEALTH (produced goods)?

No Federal, State or Local governments exist. Who makes the currency? Is there a Cold Hard Cash vendor? What happens when these guys/groups start competing with each other? How will there universal agreement on the value of these currencies? How would states or nations trade if everything happens at the local (village) level?

The operative word (by my understanding anyway) would be my use of "all".

No, the constitution and bill of rights are only concerned with the federal government and its responsibilities.

Gold exists, you make coins out of it, what's not to understand?

You have stuff, you trade it.

I feel like I'm distracting from the topic ... as we're into Rothbardian libertarianism ... and the topic is more closely related to Lockean natural philosophy.

Thanks all who answered my questions, beg pardon for the distractions.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Semicollegiate

Are your comments also referring to a society in which there has been total privatization?

And, would you consider a process of my asking questions and stating logical conclusions from your answers to be "complaining"?

Yes, money was invented by the free market. Money is simply a medium of exchange. Since an exchange can take some time, money is also a store of value.

The basic idea of money is that you give up some thing to get it and then get some thing when you give it up.

A fixed money supply insures that your money wont lose value in between.

Money is essentially a service, and can be provided by businesses. Especially now with the internet information system that can keep track of whose money service is the best.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: greencmp

Good. And thank you for indulging my questions thus far.

So, if everything that had been administrated by government at whatever level were now privatized, which means, for a few examples, we'd be paying private contractors for use of roads, the electrical/water/commuications grid, public safety including security, fire and emergency medical ... let's stop there although obviously to replace the current level of services managed by government would entail a much longer list of private vendors ... and gold is used as the currency of choice to represent our wealth (which is basically our individually produced goods) and which gold currency we would trade with these vendors for these services ... how is the actual physical gold money made and by whom? How is the quality of the gold guaranteed? Who sets its value in relationship to some standard of value for my goods?

What does "standard" even mean, in this context ... daily (hourly, minutely) market value alone?

Paper money was backed by gold until WW1. A bank would issue a paper note that had written on it "payable in gold to the barer upon demand" or some such phrase. The bank was by law required to pay in gold (or silver when such was legal) to anyone presenting the paper money. The problem was fractional reserve banking, where the banks would loan more money than they had gold to cover. The panics of the pre Federal Reserve System were almost 100% due to banks making loans in excess of deposits and then crashing when they couldn't redeem their currency.

Any banking system based on issuing currency backed 100% by held wealth would be a sound money system.

Right now a piece of copper about the size of a silver dollar is worth $1.00.

I think that Gold would be a good commodity to start with and will probably increase in value forever but anything of value like stocks or commodities or bitcoins or land, that the bank owned or held on deposit could work.

a reply to: Boadicea


Its been many years and years I have never seen where the education system taught the philosophy behind our revolution as they taught the rest of it.

The closest I ever saw, in college, we had a liberal professor came in one day and challenged the idea, wanted it removed from documents, the idea of rights granted by God and/or nature even. What have you.

And yes the flow of things toward a philosophy that rights are granted by government is a major departure.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
I feel like I'm distracting from the topic ... as we're into Rothbardian libertarianism ... and the topic is more closely related to Lockean natural philosophy.

Thanks all who answered my questions, beg pardon for the distractions.

The philosophies we are discussing are so far off the beaten path that a lot of digression is required to explain them.

Otherwise the discussion becomes "did too, did not" type assertions.

Personally I never fault a post that has references like "Rothbardian Libertarianism" or "Lockean natural philosophy" or even "Marxian historical forces". The latter I don't believe in, because individuals do things-- not complex nouns like countries or historical periods.

a reply to: Semicollegiate


We could start simply and with something easy for all to understand by the challenge to the doctrine of the Devine Right of Kings.

That challenge lead to the concept of "We the People".

a reply to: greencmp

So, the answer to my question is that individuals will mint their own coins under the new system?

Okay, we've made some progress.

How do I know how much gold (purity) is in your coins during our transaction in the village market? How about the weight? Does everyone carry a balance scale with them, everywhere they go? How much does that process slow down even the most basic transactions?