What Individualism Is Not • Frank Chodorov

a reply to: daskakik

Why would you buy something from a shady gang if you could get it from your grandma?

a reply to: greencmp
What are you talking about?

a reply to: daskakik

You seem to be saying that bad guys will always be your providers of sustenance.

If you have the choice why not choose the better product from the better producer?

originally posted by: greencmp
You seem to be saying that bad guys will always be your providers of sustenance.

No, I said that people often form groups to gain leverage. Something as simple as group buys are an example of this. Doesn't have to include bad people but it can.

If you have the choice why not choose the better product from the better producer?

Grandma's products suck.

a reply to: daskakik

But free association is perfectly legitimate, a large order on a regular basis justifies special consideration.

a reply to: greencmp
You are missing the point, strength in numbers is a fact and sooner or later people will make use of it and there will be more formal associations.

Then we will be right back here with "individualists" claiming that they have the answer.

a reply to: daskakik

You are dodging my invitation to illustrate exactly what it is about the free market that you believe is impractical.

If I can formulate your statement for you I would say that you believe that people cannot cooperate without an ultimate regulatory overseer, one or more people will figure out a way to rip people off.

Please note that these are not your words and I am paraphrasing from what you have said already.

Is this an accurate assessment?

Perhaps we'd make more progress if we considered the real world examples of totally "Free Markets" in the world.

Closest I have is Somalia, should we start there?

Or, perhaps others wish to pick one ... I'm sure there are multiple examples since this is obviously the best economic system available.

originally posted by: greencmp
You are dodging my invitation to illustrate exactly what it is about the free market that you believe is impractical.

It isn't that they are impractical, they are impossible.

If I can formulate your statement for you I would say that you believe that people cannot cooperate without an ultimate regulatory overseer, one or more people will figure out a way to rip people off.

I have already said it, markets can be manipulated even in the absence of government.

You keep pointing to government as the culprit but it really is only a tool.

a reply to: daskakik

Well that is just not true, the free markets exist and have existed long before any society, culture or government.

When governments, societies and cultures fall, free markets pick up the pieces and rebuild.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Perhaps we'd make more progress if we considered the real world examples of totally "Free Markets" in the world.

Closest I have is Somalia, should we start there?

Or, perhaps others wish to pick one ... I'm sure there are multiple examples since this is obviously the best economic system available.

How about your town tonight.

How many police do you have out on the beat? Is that why people aren't breaking down your door?

What do you do between the hours of 5PM and 9AM if you have a problem that your town is responsible for?

Does the world collapse on the weekend when there is virtually no operational government?

originally posted by: greencmp
Well that is just not true, the free markets exist

Where?

a reply to: greencmp

Atlanta, Georgia?

Is that what you want to go with as the example of a truly Free Market?

You're making other arguments about other libertarian talking points ... let's stick to Free Market.

Show me how Atlanta, GA conforms in any way to a "Free Market."

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: greencmp
Well that is just not true, the free markets exist

Where?

Everywhere, as you pointed out yourself black markets exist in the most oppressed environments such as prisons and public schools.

originally posted by: greencmp
Everywhere, as you pointed out yourself black markets exist in the most oppressed environments such as prisons and public schools.

But there is still hierarchy. You are not going to get on cell block D and start slinging products without paying tribute.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: greencmp

Atlanta, Georgia?

Is that what you want to go with as the example of a truly Free Market?

You're making other arguments about other libertarian talking points ... let's stick to Free Market.

Show me how Atlanta, GA conforms in any way to a "Free Market."

I am watching the Walking Dead and thought you were asking me if I was thinking about the show.

I am just saying that free markets always exist and the reason for attempting to thwart them is always for some political outcome that is unconcerned with the most equitable exchange between the participating parties.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: greencmp
Everywhere, as you pointed out yourself black markets exist in the most oppressed environments such as prisons and public schools.

But there is still hierarchy. You are not going to get on cell block D and start slinging products without paying tribute.

Yes, to the cell block king who gets his authority from the prison manager.

You need to think outside the prison.

a reply to: greencmp

It's you're example. What else is there?

a reply to: greencmp

Free Markets always exist ... but you can't point any national economies that are based on these principles?

How about regional economies? City economies? Neighborhood economies?

Your only examples are prisoners trading smokes and middle-schoolers trading Pokemon cards (or whatever they're trading these days)?

Wow.

a reply to: Gryphon66

That is the evidence against their eradication which would be required by any planned system.

I want them and see them everywhere, even in the trading of benefits for sick days or dump rights between towns. States will negotiate for water rights, etc.

Competition is a mainstay of human existence and cannot be subdued.