Born Again - what is it?

How many people who are "born again" think of the fleshly, and think of heaven in fleshly terms?

Wanted to stop there but need to go further. If your idea of being born again is fleshly and that heaven is fleshly, you were never born of the spirit. Which reveals spiritual things.

a reply to: iNobody
I would imagine they believe something like this:

John 3:3-7 NIV
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

What does it mean to be born of spirit? If you know?

originally posted by: iNobody
a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

What does it mean to be born of spirit? If you know?

IMHO this is what the Orthodox call theosis and what is refer to in all other traditions under various names such as: religious experience, spiritual experience, sacred experience, mystical experiences, awakening.

It's a self-transformation process. A shift of focus from the material to the transcendent. The realization of our non-dual nature VS the illusion of the individuality.


It's always the same process between all traditions, with different names and cultural background, but similar stages.

Theosis has three stages: first, the purgative way, purification, or katharsis; second, illumination, the illuminative way, the vision of God, or theoria; and third, sainthood, the unitive way, or theosis.

Our personal Passion. The cross we bear, the death of our ego, the rebirth of a new person and a new life in union with the divine.

a reply to: Develo

Thank you for taking your time to explain your understanding.

It has nothing to do with the individual.

As God himself says:

(Romans 9:15, 16) . . .“I will show mercy to whomever I will show mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I will show compassion.” 16 So, then, it depends, not on a person’s desire or on his effort, but on God, who has mercy.

So really it has nothing to do with a person.

(Ephesians 2:8, 9) . . .By this undeserved kindness you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing; rather, it is God’s gift. 9 No, it is not a result of works, so that no one should have grounds for boasting. . .

Thank you for taking the time to respond though. You were the only one. And hence, you may perhaps learn something.

originally posted by: iNobody
It has nothing to do with the individual.

As God himself says:

(Romans 9:15, 16) . . .“I will show mercy to whomever I will show mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I will show compassion.” 16 So, then, it depends, not on a person’s desire or on his effort, but on God, who has mercy.

So really it has nothing to do with a person.

It says it's not the result of a desire. It's a result of grace.

There is nothing in this contradicting what I posted.


Many people want to embark on a spiritual journey, but only some of them will be touched by divine grace and will be truly transformed by it.

Actually for most people, it's even an undesired experience, as it was for me. I did not expect such a transformation, and yet it happened by grace.


It has everything to do with the individual as the subject being "born again", yet nothing with the desires of the individual.

originally posted by: iNobody
It has nothing to do with the individual.

Yes, it has nothing to do with the individual in terms of seeking for some kind of rebirth or conversion. Such a conversion occurs when someone has truly surrendered their search to somehow take heaven by storm or to find some ultimate enjoyment in life apart from God, etc.

When Jesus commands everyone to:

"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

He is requiring complete surrender to the Divine. Anything less than that is not fully adhering to these commandments. And really, the only way such would be possible is by Grace, not by some individual effort to somehow do this.

But this is not to say we do not do anything - we do everything we can to actually surrender everything to the Divine.

Such is the real conversion or being born again that Jesus speaks of.

"Born of water and The Spirit"....being "born again". This is our Christian Baptism.

"I baptize you, in the name of The Father and of The Son, and of The Holy Spirit". There, you're born again, it's that simple.

You're being claimed by God, an adopted son or daughter. Then becoming humble and truly evangelized, becoming an intentional disciple of Jesus Christ, taking up your cross and following Him? That's a profound conversion for most and Baptism is only the start.





a reply to: iNobody

This is what happened to me, and I think I was "born again". I was raised a Jehovah Witness, and they dont believe in being born again. But, I left the church when I was in my early 20s and I thought my kids were all going to die at Armageddon. So, I began to pray with my emotion of great sadness. Begging God for the "truth" and to save my kids. (crying, begging, pleading, screaming etc.)
I was alone in my house, and I built a fire and burned everything I thought was "bad" my books, my weed, (I was sorry about that later lol) But, I finally said, "I dont know who you are, but if you are big enough to create this earth, then your big enough to tell me who you are, are you Buddah, Jehovah, etc etc?. When I said the name of Jesus, every sin I ever sinned, and every hurt I caused others, flashed before my eyes, like a death evaluation.
I felt soooooo dirty, so horrid, I fell on my face and begged forgiveness. As I did that, I began to speak in tongues (I didnt know what the %^&* was going on, only that as I allowed myself to pour out the words, I felt, clean, whole, and full of peace, love and joy.
What really changed for me, was I felt love like I cant explain. and I "knew" how to love people in a different way. I never want to judge anyone, and I never want to hurt anyone, because all the hurt I had caused, I felt during the life review. Now, at first, I thought I needed to be in church, but my spiritual awareness has grown since that time. And I believe that there is a spirit of goodness, but with research and study, Ive also discovered that the Christian Church is the epitome of BS. And that the spirit of truth, love, peace, and joy, is available to everyone who truly seeks. Also, I believe there is something important about praying with your emotions.
Its 35 years later, and I still havent figured it all out, but I know that "God" is no respecter of persons" and this gift is available to any true seeker. The Christian church thinks they own this theology, but in reality, they deny the power of the spirit.

a reply to: misskat1

Good for you . Speaking in tongues sometimes happens naturally when your speech center get to energized by the spirit energy. Feeling that bliss/love from beyond changes you. I still question behaviors that we do and play around with duality sometimes. But even if I cannot love every soul today I can love every soul potential to be wonderful.

Namaste (I bow to the divine in you)

originally posted by: misskat1
The Christian church thinks they own this theology, but in reality, they deny the power of the spirit.

Correction, evangelical and fundamentalists think they have the monopoly for being "born again". I know most people on ATS equate "Christian Church" with "Christian fundamentalism seen in the US". Nothing could be further from the truth.

Non-fundamentalists Churches (all the other ones actually, the vast majority of Christians) do not believe only their path is valid.

Vatican II said it explicitely:

those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh (Jews). On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans (Muslims), who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God (other theisitic beliefs), for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God (other agnostics or atheists who still live a moral life) and with His grace strive to live a good life.

a reply to: Develo

Its funny you should bring up the Vatican. I can not explain it, but I have a complete and utter repulsion towards that Church. Not the beautiful Catholic People, but the hierarchy. Everything Vatican, is vile, and evil. This feeling started when I was born again, and has never left me.

originally posted by: misskat1
a reply to: Develo

Its funny you should bring up the Vatican. I can not explain it, but I have a complete and utter repulsion towards that Church. Not the beautiful Catholic People, but the hierarchy. Everything Vatican, is vile, and evil. This feeling started when I was born again, and has never left me.

The Vatican is usually depicted in a bad light by Evangelicals since they are basically their competitors


I was like you first, more out of ignorance than personal knowledge though.

Without identifying myself as a Christian or Catholic, I took the time to actually discuss with priests and monks, just because I wanted THEIR version of the story, not all the BS found online.


Well I was pleasantly surprised. Of course their are power struggles and manipulation within the Vatican hierarchy, but their intent are usually good, and most are still loving and intelligent people. They just are also ambitious.


The most common mistake people make is to imagine priests are magically immune from being stupid, deviant or mislead. They are also human beings and come in all diversity. But many of them are extremely loving, humble, intelligent, and non-materialistic. Also they are not afraid to live with their time and to review their dogmas according to latest discoveries.


On the other hand, I feel utter repulsion when I see televangelists and other preachers frightening their audience talking about armageddon all the time, asking their followers to give money and buy product, casting judgement on people who do not share their beliefs or teaching things like young earth creationism.

All this also exist precisely because of the lack of hierarchy.

A hierarchy is both positive and negative depending on the case, and I can understand why the freedom-loving Amercians would hate the idea of a Religious hierarchy, on the other hand, the US have also become the major hub for Christian extremism and fundamentalism wordwide, precisely because of the lack of hierarchy.



I understand the repuslion toward the Vatican, but most of the time it's simply the fear of what we don't know.

If you actually take the time to read the texts issued by the Vatican, you would find beautiful and inspiring spiritual texts.

a reply to: Develo

I will never get past the History of the Vatican Church, the pedophilia, the murders, the book burning, the rewriting of ancient texts, the mass poverty under their watch, the money laundry, the connection to the mob, hiding Hitlers Hit men and allowing them to escape judgement, the over 800 children found in a Church sewer, killing everyone who disagreed with them, burning witches, and midwives, and natural healers. I could go on, but I think you see my point.

Ignorant or not, I wouldnt hitch my spiritual wagon to a hierarchy with such a bad track record.

originally posted by: misskat1
a reply to: Develo

I will never get past the History of the Vatican Church, the pedophilia, the murders, the book burning, the rewriting of ancient texts, the mass poverty under their watch, the money laundry, the connection to the mob, hiding Hitlers Hit men and allowing them to escape judgement, the over 800 children found in a Church sewer, killing everyone who disagreed with them, burning witches, and midwives, and natural healers. I could go on, but I think you see my point.

Ignorant or not, I wouldnt hitch my spiritual wagon to a hierarchy with such a bad track record.

I will not try to convince you you are wrong, because as I said, there are reasons to hate the Vatican.

Just to inform you that many of the things you posted here are out of context or incorrect. For example the pedophilia accusations were used by dectractors of the church.

The reality is that there are in proportion far less pedophiles in the Church than in society. Pedophilia is unfortunately a very common but hidden problem, happening most of the time within the family. Pedophelia in the Church was given exposure, but next to that, hundreds of thousands of children are abused by normal people and that isn't talked about. Why do you think it's that way? It's more juicy when it's the priest doing it, isn't it

Regarding the witch burning, again, it was quite deformed. Actually it happened mostly in Protestant countries, and even though the Spanish inquisition is infamous, in many Catholic countries the burning where rare and more political.

edit: I will try to be factual instead
As you can see the figures speak from themselves. Only 5% of the executions happened in Catholic countries. It was mostly a protestant thing which is surprisingly resonating today whe you see how Evangelical protestants see gays, pagans or other people they deem deviant.



Same with the book burning or corruption, we are talking about a time when that was more common and cultural, the Church members today aren't the same people, the time are different. Are you the kind of person who would still feel "repulsed" by Germany because of what it did during 2 world wars? I live next to Germany I never held modern Germans accountable for these things.

Likewise I don't think it's honest to hold the current Vatican accountable for the misdeeds of the past or of a few individuals.

But anyway like most people I think you are right, and the Vatican definitely has still plenty of room for repentance and improvement. I just don't think the picture today is as bleak as people believe it is. Compared to most hierarchies (politics, corporate hierarchies, ...) it seems to simply suffer from the same ills.

originally posted by: iNobody
How many people who are "born again" think of the fleshly, and think of heaven in fleshly terms?

Wanted to stop there but need to go further. If your idea of being born again is fleshly and that heaven is fleshly, you were never born of the spirit. Which reveals spiritual things.

Hello again iNobody. This is an important topic, thanks for making this thread. It's a tough thing to talk about. Language can only point to it, and people are very attached to their idea of it. So I'll share my thoughts, knowing language can't do them justice.

There are basically two kinds of religious person. Actives and contemplatives. Martha and Mary, in the Gospel of Luke, epitomize these roles. Martha is an active, Mary a contemplative.

"Lord, don't you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!" -Martha

The religious life encompasses both roles, even though they are very different from the other, and each is a full-time job. No one can be both. So for each, there is a way to be born again. For actives, there is the way of institutional ritual.

A ritual is a reenactment of a myth. The active lives the myth through ritual, and Jesus becomes their proxy. His status is their status, through participation mystique. His robe is your robe. By myth, I don't mean falsehood. So don't get defensive.

For contemplatives, there is the way of union. Not much can be said about that. Language breaks down. It involves ego-death and rebirth, Holy Madness, Heavenly secrets, spiritual warfare, paranormal phenomena, pain.

👣

a reply to: Develo

I wont try to convince you that you are wrong either. Just remember, "you will know them by their fruits."

Im not sure how much repentance and good works it would take to undue the bloody, greedy, foundation on which the Vatican has built its current control and power and great hoards of wealth, which was built on the backs of innocent people. Not my call.

IMO, a really good start, would be to really open up the Vatican Archives with all its secrets and expose all the truth they keep hidden. They preach that you must confess sins to be forgiven, yet it seems to me that they try really hard to cover the truth up. I wont believe there are no secrets hidden, until secular scholars have access to the Vatican Archives.

a reply to: iNobody
For the Christian, being "born again" is simply becoming "alive to god" through conversion to the Christian faith(acceptance of Jesus).
Ephesians 2

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ...

There's nothing mystical or spiritual about it.

originally posted by: misskat1
a reply to: Develo

I wont try to convince you that you are wrong either. Just remember, "you will know them by their fruits."

that's what I did

Witch hunts 1450-1750:



Like I said, to truly discuss this topic critically we have to look past our preconceptions and most of the BS we can read online.

They are certainly bad, but I believe they are far from the worsts

originally posted by: misskat1
IMO, a really good start, would be to really open up the Vatican Archives with all its secrets and expose all the truth they keep hidden.

They have quite an extensive porn collection I heard

a reply to: Develo

Thats what Im talking about, we need that porno collection darn it.

But, really thank you for your peaceful. loving way, of trying to build bridges.