NO reincarnation, " FOR YOU."

a reply to: Jay-morris
And how is this different than say Europe before the Renaissance? Or the exploration and conquest of the new world, the native people were killed, or enslaved, where their very culture stifled all in the name of religion, or say the Catholic Church, whose main thing, the Vatican was built on slave labor, even the artists who decorated it did such under duress, and were paid poorly for the effort. Or even say the modern religious extremists that would give most religions a bad name.

The point being, that the system that the Chinese imposed is no better. And ultimately being that it is their country, they should have some say in how they do and do not want to run it, or have it run. The Dali Lama, has stated that he wants to end the rule of the lama’s and the office of the Dali Lama, that it is time for the people of Tibet, to determine their own path, that the lama’s should be there more to advise, not to set policy or even state what should or should not be. He has stated he is going to take up the issue in a few years and at that time frame the question if the office will remain or not will be answered.

a reply to: Stormdancer777

any info on why he won't be reincarnating? his choice?

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
a reply to: Jay-morris
And how is this different than say Europe before the Renaissance? Or the exploration and conquest of the new world, the native people were killed, or enslaved, where their very culture stifled all in the name of religion, or say the Catholic Church, whose main thing, the Vatican was built on slave labor, even the artists who decorated it did such under duress, and were paid poorly for the effort. Or even say the modern religious extremists that would give most religions a bad name.

The point being, that the system that the Chinese imposed is no better. And ultimately being that it is their country, they should have some say in how they do and do not want to run it, or have it run. The Dali Lama, has stated that he wants to end the rule of the lama’s and the office of the Dali Lama, that it is time for the people of Tibet, to determine their own path, that the lama’s should be there more to advise, not to set policy or even state what should or should not be. He has stated he is going to take up the issue in a few years and at that time frame the question if the office will remain or not will be answered.

The difference is, this was just over 50 years ago. Is Buddhism supposed to be one of the most peaceful religions? You would not think so after knowing what happened in tibet.

You saying the Chinese taking over Tibet was worse than what 98% of the Tibetan people were going through? I know China has not been perfect in Tibet, but not half as bad as it was under lama rule.

People say that you can't blame the lama because he was young at the time. Well, he is the lama, so should he have known that it was wrong?

What gets me the most is that a lot of people I debate about this, refuse to be live that Tibet was like this under lama rule, and they still worship the lama as if he was a great man, which he is not.

And of course he is going to change his opinion on Tibet now. He is not going to turn around and say "I want Tibet back to the way it was" as he knows that kind of evil would not happen again.

Sorry, I just don't by his BS. Gullible people might, and the people who have jumped on the "free Tibet " band wagin.

As for Tibet not being part of China. That is debatable with historians not being able to agree .

a reply to: Jay-morris

You saying the Chinese taking over Tibet was worse than what 98% of the Tibetan people were going through?

Just to be clear, though, the atrocities were NOT under THIS Lama's rule. THIS Lama is in agreement with disbanding the tradition. I think that needs to be acknowledged and applauded.

Don't you?

a reply to: Jay-morris
This was only 50 years ago? But at the same time, within the last 15 years, the western world has seen the rise of religious extremism in many areas of the world. Islamic extremist waging war in the Middle East, Christian extremist persecutes those who they find undesirable in the United States, Eastern Europe, Russia and West Africa. And that all has been building up here steadily every year, and yet one system of government, a theocracy is viewed as wrong. What is the difference, religious extremism is bad all around.

Bits of history, as you are mentioning such. While he was found to be at the age of 2 as being the candidate of being the reincarnation of the prior Dali Lama, it was not until 1950, that he was formally recognized as such, when he was 15. So at the age of 15 he was given full majority only for 9 years and even then during that time frame he had to deal with all of the policies and political turmoil during that time that had occurred while he was in training. After that, even after trying to work with the Chinese government, he was forced to flee for his life to India to seek political asylum, and have been in exile ever since then. Course the Chinese were no better, if anything one could say they were worse, as Mao, was not known to be in favor of any religion. According to most, if anything, chairman Mao viewed all religions with disdain and hatred, viewing it as a poison of the mind, seeking to eradicate all of such from China and all it controlled, to include outright murder of monks, nuns, priests and other religious figures, along with the destruction of religious artifacts, monasteries and temples in his area of control.

That much is well documented, even what would have been considered heritage sites, parts of history that could never be replaced, and the sheer amount of the damage will never be known.

But beyond that, what many fail to consider, that when dealing with those of the religious, the hardest thing to kill is a belief. If the Tibetan’s believe in the institution, then it will continue, if they chose not to, then perhaps it will fade away. If you read and listen to what the man is stating, he is stating the age of the institution and office of the Dali Lama, being in charge is over, that it is time for it to fade into history and that the next Dali Lama will be just a monk, an abbot in a monetary and nothing more. He is more in favor of seeing the Tibetan people determining their own path and direction, with the lama’s taking on more of a teaching role, rather than a leadership role. And that is what the man is stating.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Jay-morris

You saying the Chinese taking over Tibet was worse than what 98% of the Tibetan people were going through?

Just to be clear, though, the atrocities were NOT under THIS Lama's rule. THIS Lama is in agreement with disbanding the tradition. I think that needs to be acknowledged and applauded.

Don't you?

You really think he would have been any different from the other lamas if China did not gain control of Tibet? Yes, its easy for a man to say what he would have done, years after, but the more you delve into this man, the more you realise that he is not what he seems to be.

Did he condemn the cronies that fled to India with him? When China went into Tibet, the majority of people welcomed it because, they were pretty much starving slaves to these cronies. Off course the high monks and " special people" were upset because they were losing their power.

What happens still to this day when we invade a country to liberate them? Most people are okay with that. But oh no, not Tibet because most people don't know the real history of Tibet. Brainwashed by western media propaganda.

There is a reason why the dark history of Tibet is kept out of the media.

Gearóid Ó Colmáin is a political analyst based in Paris.And he knows all about Tibet, the lama, and the propaganda that comes with it.

this a good read

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
a reply to: Jay-morris
This was only 50 years ago? But at the same time, within the last 15 years, the western world has seen the rise of religious extremism in many areas of the world. Islamic extremist waging war in the Middle East, Christian extremist persecutes those who they find undesirable in the United States, Eastern Europe, Russia and West Africa. And that all has been building up here steadily every year, and yet one system of government, a theocracy is viewed as wrong. What is the difference, religious extremism is bad all around.

Bits of history, as you are mentioning such. While he was found to be at the age of 2 as being the candidate of being the reincarnation of the prior Dali Lama, it was not until 1950, that he was formally recognized as such, when he was 15. So at the age of 15 he was given full majority only for 9 years and even then during that time frame he had to deal with all of the policies and political turmoil during that time that had occurred while he was in training. After that, even after trying to work with the Chinese government, he was forced to flee for his life to India to seek political asylum, and have been in exile ever since then. Course the Chinese were no better, if anything one could say they were worse, as Mao, was not known to be in favor of any religion. According to most, if anything, chairman Mao viewed all religions with disdain and hatred, viewing it as a poison of the mind, seeking to eradicate all of such from China and all it controlled, to include outright murder of monks, nuns, priests and other religious figures, along with the destruction of religious artifacts, monasteries and temples in his area of control.

That much is well documented, even what would have been considered heritage sites, parts of history that could never be replaced, and the sheer amount of the damage will never be known.

But beyond that, what many fail to consider, that when dealing with those of the religious, the hardest thing to kill is a belief. If the Tibetan’s believe in the institution, then it will continue, if they chose not to, then perhaps it will fade away. If you read and listen to what the man is stating, he is stating the age of the institution and office of the Dali Lama, being in charge is over, that it is time for it to fade into history and that the next Dali Lama will be just a monk, an abbot in a monetary and nothing more. He is more in favor of seeing the Tibetan people determining their own path and direction, with the lama’s taking on more of a teaching role, rather than a leadership role. And that is what the man is stating.

You are joking right? Tibet worse under Chinese rule? How can you look at the history and say that!

It was disgusting the way the Tibetan people were treated. They were treated like animals, and you talk about faith. We are talking about torture, slavery, rapes, executions. It beggers belief that you can say that Chinese rule is worse, because it certainly is not.

The lama hides behind his peaceful talks, his non violence stance, when history tells you, that is not true, unless the CIA dicuments are wrong. Alot of what you hear is propaganda, and this man is just another puppet.
Again, CIA documents has propaganda all over it.

Yes, he has friends in high places who smile in wonder in his presence. You have idiots like Sharon stone who says " an earthquake in China that killed many children was karma" And he has the normal folk sucked in too.

He is a clever man, but people who have the ability to brainwash people normally are

a reply to: Jay-morris

As compared to what? Islamic Extremist who do the exact same thing, currently within the past 5 years, of rape, murder, enslavement in the Middle East and Africa? Stoning for women who are convicted of rape or for having prematiral sex? Where education of woman is frowned on. Where woman are nothing more than chattel for men?

Or how about Christianity? People killing in the name of Jesus, giving children away, cause they are "Possessed" only to be raped and abused. The passage of laws to discriminate and restrict. Is that any better?

Or how about now, where some of the very basic freedoms were and still are forbidden. Or a government what refuses to negotiate with someone, or where a government makes an agreement and turns around and breaks it, only to seek to persecute those who would try to enforce that agreement, or a government that is getting more agressive in its military posturing and stances, where another country is on the verge of being attacked for daring not to go along with the "Party Line."

Mao was no saint, after all 45 million people killed within 4 years, forced reeducation, along with the attempted destruction of the countries cultural past. Those are much better?

a reply to: Stormdancer777

Interesting, of course he may believe his spirit as attained a high enough level or he may actually be a closet Christian.

Reincarnation is something many of us ponder and I wondered for a long time about it from shall we say memory's or maybe they were not that I had as a child, maybe for some it is true but then what being in it's right mind would want to reincarnate on a world of homicidal self centred war mongering maniac's, of course that by a very good argument is the pot calling the kettle black as we Brit's say.

Personally I do not believe in reincarnation but that is not to say I believe it never happens as on balance I believe there is enough evidence (though non empirical by nature) to offer supporting proof that indeed it does at least in some form take place at least some of the time.

The Dalai Lama is an extremely intelligent man and if he did say this (which I am not convinced about) then it may only be because he has found a superior view or theology to the one that has shackled and indoctrinated his thinking for the bulk of his life or maybe he has simply lost faith.

Then again Remember that China is actually occupying the Tibet Platau and has enacted a multy generational policy of ethic cleansing Tibet by sterilizing young Tibetans and settling young Chinese who then receive preferential treatment in the Tibetan homeland.

They have a fake state sponsored Christian church and also an equally fake buddist Lama, when the Dalai Lama dies it is in there interest to not have him reincarnate as he has remained an outspoken critic of Chinese Occupation and treatment of Ethnic Tibetans so the are not going to present a little boy and say it is him as no one would believe it, still they can character assassinate him then claim he is no longer the Dalai Lama.

a reply to: Jay-morris

Thanks for that. Interesting stuff. I'm afraid my understanding of Chinese history is limited to Amy Tam and Pearl S Buck.

I believe in reincarnation, personally, but I have no idea if the Dalai Lama is actually the same soul, reincarnating again and again into the title. I think the tradition of selecting a child and ripping them from their home, and then applying 24/7 indoctrination can't be a good thing. I find it interesting how this one man's "karma", regardless of "who" he really is, is playing out on a world stage.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
Is this a joke?

No I understand this thus, that the Dalai Lama is recognising we are living in the «endtimes», and this is the spiritual leader of Tibet's way of fulfilling or acknowledging ancient Tibetan prophecies which says that in the endtimes the Dalai Lama will no longer be selected/found and Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism will enter a new era.

a reply to: sdcigarpig

There is a wonderful documentary on the subject (finding the new incarnation of a high lama) called "Unmistaken Child).

www.pbs.org...

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
a reply to: FyreByrd
Zen is not considered to be a valid school of Buddhism. Most of the other sects and schools view Zen with disdain and distrust. The reason why is that there is a break in the lineage. According to most, at one time it was considered to be a valid sect, but one day the head priest was killed, breaking the lineage, and the school was considered dead after that. For a school of Buddhism to be considered valid, there has to be an unbroken lineage of teaching, going from the Enlightened one, going from teacher to student, with no breaks.

Interesting, I didn't know that.

Zen was the first school I looked into (Alan Watts and all that) however I found too ascetic for my temperment. But I did learn a lot at the Zen Center of LA in the 70's.

a reply to: sdcigarpig

As compared to what? Islamic Extremist who do the exact same thing, currently within the past 5 years, of rape, murder, enslavement in the Middle East and Africa? Stoning for women who are convicted of rape or for having prematiral sex? Where education of woman is frowned on. Where woman are nothing more than chattel for men?

Yes, and what have we done? We have intervened to help the people, or liberate the people. When china went into tibet, most of the population was happy about it because they were the ones suffering from pretty much all the the quote above. But, no one mentions this when they talk about tibet. Why is this hidden from most people? Most people who shout "free tibet" don't even know the real history.

If the lama was not to blame for what happened. What about his cronies that fled to india. Why were they never bought to justice for their crimes, and why has the deli lama not even mentioned it. Did he distance himself from these monsters. No, he did not.

Or how about Christianity? People killing in the name of Jesus, giving children away, cause they are "Possessed" only to be raped and abused. The passage of laws to discriminate and restrict. Is that any better?

And why exactly were these people killing and enslaving their people? Can anyone, find anything it that religon were they can twist words like in the bible and Quran.

These monsters in tibet were just monsters at the end of the day. I don't even think they used a reason from their "peaceful" religon to do the things they did.

Or how about now, where some of the very basic freedoms were and still are forbidden.

what freedom did they have before chinese rule? Please tell me the freedom they had?

Or a government what refuses to negotiate with someone, or where a government makes an agreement and turns around and breaks it, only to seek to persecute those who would try to enforce that agreement

Like i said before. China is not innocent in all this, and i know they broke an agreement. How many human right laws were the tibetan government breaking before china went in?

or a government that is getting more agressive in its military posturing and stances, where another country is on the verge of being attacked for daring not to go along with the "Party Line."

Thatis rubbish! There are alot more countries out there that worry me when it comes to war. China is not one of them.

Mao was no saint, after all 45 million people killed within 4 years, forced reeducation, along with the attempted destruction of the countries cultural past. Those are much better?

Mao was a nasty peice of work. Everyone agree's with that. We are talking about tibet, and the state of tibet under lama rule. We are talking about why alot of pro "free tibet" people know nothing about tibet before chinese rule, and believe it was a heaven on earth, when in fact, it was one of the worst places on the planet. We are talking about why people don't question the deli lama. About his dealing with x nazis and the cia programes.

The man is not who he says he is 100% You might want to look at him with wonder or whatever, I see him as a lier, deciever who hides behind this non violence stance, when like i said before, the past shows he is lying.

As for tibet being part of china. Read up on the history on that, and you will see its not an easy question to answer. China liberated the people of tibet, while the monsters ran to india. Yes, china has not been perfect, but its a damn sight better than it was under lama rule.

Maybe people should watch this video for a better understanding of what the deli lama really is. I don't think it will change many minds becuase this guy has a david koresh kind of hold on people



Oh, and the guy can pretty much say any crap and peoples mouths will be open with wonder, even though its a complete load of rubbish!

This is another interesting video that tells you exactly what it was like under lama rule.

Here is the latest,

Tibetan Government on Dalai Lama's Desire Not to Reincarnate: "It's Not His Decision"

Muneeb KaziMar 16, 2015 11:35 AM EDT

www.sciencetimes.com...

"Whether [the Dalai Lama] wants to cease reincarnation or not ... this decision is not up to him," said Mr Padma Choling, the Tibet regional governor. "When he became the 14th Dalai Lama, it was not his decision. He was chosen following a strict system dictated by religious rules and historical tradition and also with the approval of the central government. Can he decide when to stop reincarnating? That is impossible. What he wants is to distort reality. It's impossible in my view. Tibetan Buddhism follows tradition. If he goes ahead with this there will be division." The followers of the Dalai Lama are afraid that the Chinese government will appoint the heir of the present Dalai Lama after his death as the Chinese government has stated that it has the right to sign off on reincarnations. Previously, the Chinese government has taken away the boy whom the Dalai Lama has incarnated as Panchen Lama and chose their own Panchen Lama, the second highest authority in Tibetan Buddhism. "If the central government had not approved it, how could he have become the 14th Dalai Lama? He couldn't. It has a serious procedure," said Mr. Padma to Reuters. "I think that, in fact, he is profaning religion and Tibetan Buddhism".

From the horse's mouth:

www.dalailama.com...

[U: On Reincarnation, § from «Introduction»] The Dalai Lamas have functioned as both the political and spiritual leaders of Tibet for 369 years since 1642. I have now voluntarily brought this to an end, proud and satisfied that we can pursue the kind of democratic system of government flourishing elsewhere in the world. In fact, as far back as 1969, I made clear that concerned people should decide whether the Dalai Lama’s reincarnations should continue in the future. However, in the absence of clear guidelines, should the concerned public express a strong wish for the Dalai Lamas to continue, there is an obvious risk of vested political interests misusing the reincarnation system to fulfil their own political agenda. Therefore, while I remain physically and mentally fit, it seems important to me that we draw up clear guidelines to recognise the next Dalai Lama, so that there is no room for doubt or deception. For these guidelines to be fully comprehensible, it is essential to understand the system of Tulku recognition and the basic concepts behind it. Therefore, I shall briefly explain them below

.
[...]
[U: § from «The next incarnation of the Dalai Lama»

]When I am about ninety I will consult the high Lamas of the Tibetan Buddhist traditions, the Tibetan public, and other concerned people who follow Tibetan Buddhism, and re-evaluate whether the institution of the Dalai Lama should continue or not. On that basis we will take a decision. If it is decided that the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama should continue and there is a need for the Fifteenth Dalai Lama to be recognized, responsibility for doing so will primarily rest on the concerned officers of the Dalai Lama’s Gaden Phodrang Trust. They should consult the various heads of the Tibetan Buddhist traditions and the reliable oath-bound Dharma Protectors who are linked inseparably to the lineage of the Dalai Lamas. They should seek advice and direction from these concerned beings and carry out the procedures of search and recognition in accordance with past tradition. I shall leave clear written instructions about this. Bear in mind that, apart from the reincarnation recognized through such legitimate methods, no recognition or acceptance should be given to a candidate chosen for political ends by anyone, including those in the People’s Republic of China.

This entire thread was a fun read on a few different facets. I in particular liked the part about killing a Buddha if you see him on the road. I like to ponder the different meanings it could have and wish I could pick the brain of the person who first said it.