Islam vs Scientific Advancement

Today the spirit of science in the Muslim world is as dry as the desert. Pakistani physicist Pervez Amirali Hoodbhoy laid out the grim statistics in a 2007 Physics Today article: Muslim countries have nine scientists, engineers, and technicians per thousand people, compared with a world average of forty-one. In these nations, there are approximately 1,800 universities, but only 312 of those universities have scholars who have published journal articles. Of the fifty most-published of these universities, twenty-six are in Turkey, nine are in Iran, three each are in Malaysia and Egypt, Pakistan has two, and Uganda, the U.A.E., Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Kuwait, Jordan, and Azerbaijan each have one.

There are roughly 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, but only two scientists from Muslim countries have won Nobel Prizes in science (one for physics in 1979, the other for chemistry in 1999). Forty-six Muslim countries combined contribute just 1 percent of the world’s scientific literature; Spain and India each contribute more of the world’s scientific literature than those countries taken together. In fact, although Spain is hardly an intellectual superpower, it translates more books in a single year than the entire Arab world has in the past thousand years. “Though there are talented scientists of Muslim origin working productively in the West,” Nobel laureate physicist Steven Weinberg has observed, “for forty years I have not seen a single paper by a physicist or astronomer working in a Muslim country that was worth reading.”



So what's up? are adherents of Islam 7th Century throwbacks or what?

a reply to: AinElohim

...and the winner is ISIS for outstanding contributions to Iraqi archeology

Most Muslims I've come across are Doctors, Consultants, Pharmacists & Surgeons...

So they're usually saving lives rather than playing about in a lab thinking of what dark matter is/does etc!



Other than that, I don't really care anyways.



Let me ask you a question...

Do you think Muslims are 7th Century throwbacks...
If so why are you bothered if they're winning Nobel Prizes???

What is science missing out on, if that is the case???



Bash thread?

Quite so...


I prefer my local GP to my local black hole theoriser.

Salam.

originally posted by: khnum
a reply to: AinElohim

...and the winner is ISIS for outstanding contributions to Iraqi archeology

yes while they bulldoze entire ancient sites...

uncivilized if you ask me

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
Most Muslims I've come across are Doctors, Consultants, Pharmacists & Surgeons...

So they're usually saving lives rather than playing about in a lab thinking of what dark matter is/does etc!.

those are Indian Hindu's in the United States, I live in the Nations Capital.

India has a probe orbiting the planet Mars right now!

a reply to: AinElohim

& might I ask why you haven't actually addressed anything I've said...

& also why you thought it necessary to bring Hindus into your own thread about Muslims & Science?


Is it an attempt at oneupmanship...
Because I don't care about Mars, we will never learn anything of worth from grainy pictures of the Martian surface.



How is it relevant to the OP?

So just because they don't publish papers or win Nobel prizes that automatically means they are against science? That's just plain stupid.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

also why you thought it necessary to bring Hindus into your own thread about Muslims & Science?

Because he apparently doesn't know that 13.4% of the population of India is Muslim. Just like people that live in the nations capital automatically knows the religion of everyone.

Double post

originally posted by: buster2010
So just because they don't publish papers or win Nobel prizes that automatically means they are against science? That's just plain stupid.

A Muslim who thinks the quran is the perfect word of God MUST believe that there is an impermeable barrier between fresh and salt water, and that the two can never mix. That is insane, and thoroughly anti-science.

There is a branch of Islam that thinks throwing acid in the face of a girl because she wants to go to school is perfectly reasonable. That is horrifyingly anti-education, and by extension anti-science.

The Muslim world (geographically/politically) is a black hole for science. And it is actually regressing. It is getting worse.

The OP mentions ISIS going after archeological sites. They aren't the only ones committing this atrocity. Recall the Taliban blowing up the Buddhist statues - those statues were marvels.

And of course, like most religions, Islam demands belief in magic, and that is inherently anti-science.

originally posted by: Dewts

originally posted by: buster2010
So just because they don't publish papers or win Nobel prizes that automatically means they are against science? That's just plain stupid.

A Muslim who thinks the quran is the perfect word of God MUST believe that there is an impermeable barrier between fresh and salt water, and that the two can never mix. That is insane, and thoroughly anti-science.

There is a branch of Islam that thinks throwing acid in the face of a girl because she wants to go to school is perfectly reasonable. That is horrifyingly anti-education, and by extension anti-science.

The Muslim world (geographically/politically) is a black hole for science. And it is actually regressing. It is getting worse.

The OP mentions ISIS going after archeological sites. They aren't the only ones committing this atrocity. Recall the Taliban blowing up the Buddhist statues - those statues were marvels.

And of course, like most religions, Islam demands belief in magic, and that is inherently anti-science.

Do you know how a lot of the knowledge from the dark ages survived the book burnings that was going on in Europe at the time? Muslims are the ones that saved a lot of that knowledge and kept it until the hold of the Christian church let up so that the people could start to learn it again. Yes there are sects of Islam like that on the royals of Saudi Arabia follows that is pretty much anti science but that isn't true of all of Islam. This is what the Qur'an says about knowledge and how it would relate to science.
[96:1-5] Read! In the name of your Lord who created - Created the human from something which clings. Read! And your Lord is Most Bountiful - He who taught (the use of) the Pen, Taught the human that which he knew not.

[2:269] He [Allah] grants wisdom to whom He pleases; and he to whom wisdom is granted indeed receives a benefit overflowing. But none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

[20:114] High above all is Allah, the King, the Truth. Do not be in haste with the Qur'an before its revelation to you is completed, but say, "O my Sustainer! Increase my knowledge."

[3:190-191] Verily in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day - there are indeed signs for men of understanding; Men who remember Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the creation of the heavens and the earth (with the thought) "Our Lord! Not for nothing have You created (all) this. Glory to You! Give us salvation from the suffering of the Fire."
So saying Islam is anti science is laughable.

a reply to: Dewts

You don't understand the Quran so you should refrain from talking nonsense...


That Quran verse is talking about brackish water...


Which is the barrier between salt and fresh...





Muslims weren't stupid enough to believe if you put salt water and fresh water in a cup they won't mix!!!




Your post is a black hole for truth!

originally posted by: AinElohim

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
Most Muslims I've come across are Doctors, Consultants, Pharmacists & Surgeons...

So they're usually saving lives rather than playing about in a lab thinking of what dark matter is/does etc!.

India has a probe orbiting the planet Mars right now!

While of course half of their population have no access to toilets.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: Dewts

You don't understand the Quran so you should refrain from talking nonsense...


That Quran verse is talking about brackish water...


Which is the barrier between salt and fresh...





Muslims weren't stupid enough to believe if you put salt water and fresh water in a cup they won't mix!!!




Your post is a black hole for truth!

There are plenty of Muslims stupid enough to believe that today. (seriously, have a look at youtube.)

Brackish water is exactly what the quran says doesn't exist. Brackish water is the mixing of salt and fresh water. You can try to justify the obviously false, anti-science stupidity in the quran or you can mock it, like me.

"And it is He who has released [simultaneously] the two seas, one fresh and sweet and one salty and bitter, and He placed between them a barrier and prohibiting partition."
quran 25:53

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: Dewts

originally posted by: buster2010
So just because they don't publish papers or win Nobel prizes that automatically means they are against science? That's just plain stupid.

A Muslim who thinks the quran is the perfect word of God MUST believe that there is an impermeable barrier between fresh and salt water, and that the two can never mix. That is insane, and thoroughly anti-science.

There is a branch of Islam that thinks throwing acid in the face of a girl because she wants to go to school is perfectly reasonable. That is horrifyingly anti-education, and by extension anti-science.

The Muslim world (geographically/politically) is a black hole for science. And it is actually regressing. It is getting worse.

The OP mentions ISIS going after archeological sites. They aren't the only ones committing this atrocity. Recall the Taliban blowing up the Buddhist statues - those statues were marvels.

And of course, like most religions, Islam demands belief in magic, and that is inherently anti-science.

Do you know how a lot of the knowledge from the dark ages survived the book burnings that was going on in Europe at the time? Muslims are the ones that saved a lot of that knowledge and kept it until the hold of the Christian church let up so that the people could start to learn it again. Yes there are sects of Islam like that on the royals of Saudi Arabia follows that is pretty much anti science but that isn't true of all of Islam. This is what the Qur'an says about knowledge and how it would relate to science.
[96:1-5] Read! In the name of your Lord who created - Created the human from something which clings. Read! And your Lord is Most Bountiful - He who taught (the use of) the Pen, Taught the human that which he knew not.

[2:269] He [Allah] grants wisdom to whom He pleases; and he to whom wisdom is granted indeed receives a benefit overflowing. But none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

[20:114] High above all is Allah, the King, the Truth. Do not be in haste with the Qur'an before its revelation to you is completed, but say, "O my Sustainer! Increase my knowledge."

[3:190-191] Verily in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day - there are indeed signs for men of understanding; Men who remember Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the creation of the heavens and the earth (with the thought) "Our Lord! Not for nothing have You created (all) this. Glory to You! Give us salvation from the suffering of the Fire."
So saying Islam is anti science is laughable.

Laughable? Here's Neil Degrasse Tyson telling you exactly why you are wrong.
www.youtube.com...

a reply to: Dewts

I have watch the video and I must say Neil Tyson is a liar.

Another person debunks him:

He thinks the golden era of Islam was 800 - 1100 and this is absolutely incorrect, it was 800 - 1500 and in this era there were a lot of scholars scientists and philosophers in Islam such as al-Tusi ( 1201-1274 ) he was an encyclopedic scientist and I mean by that he was a scientist for many fields and he discovered the Heliocentric before Copernicus, on the other hand some historians said that there found some Islamic translated astronomic books in Copernicus house such as Ibn al-Shatir (1304 – 1375) works and also al-Tusi works such as The Elucidation of the Memoir on Astronomy by Ṭūsi, this was just an example about the golden era of Islam.

He also said that al-Ghazali said that the philosophy and mathematics is the work of the devil, and that's a clear lie, because everyone who studied al-Ghazali works will never believe this lie, al-Ghazali is a philosopher and he just criticized some of philosophical problems in his book the incoherence of philosophers it is such an amazing book and genius, so how can a philosopher say that the philosophy is the work of the devil? Weird. And there are no evidence that al-Ghazali said the mathematics is the work of the devil.

He tried to analyze the intellectual collapse of Islam (Neil Tyson) but he couldn't and nobody can in 5- 10 minutes there are a lot of works from experts and historians not from an astrophysicist.

I am really sorry for this guy but I am absolutely sure that he did not open a book of Al Ghazali called "the savior from delusion"

where he said : "their science is divided in six types ; mathematical,logical,natural,theological,political and ethical.

Mathematics :

it involves calculus and geometry and has no relation with religion either in proving religious things or denying it. Besides, it uses proves that we could not refute after knowing and understanding them." this is just a brief and quick translation. I have another quotes of him that show that Tyson's claim is only ironical. But, let me tell you that even if I am a mathematician, I believe that Islam did not succeed because of mathematics but science succeeded thanks to Islam.

With all due respect to Dr. Tyson, who is a genius in his field, some of his assertions are based on assumptions that don't hold up logically speaking or are a bit over-simplistic. For me, until someone actually produces the "missing link" i will continue to validate logic over dogma: that non-living meteors or lighting striking non-living oceans cannot produce life, like Darwin theorized, might as well call up zues the lightning god, maybe he did it. Logically speaking 0 life + 0 life cannot = 1 life regardless of how many statistics people throw up to justify their claims. Likewise, what math are people using to say that the non-existent universe somehow originated itself, last i checked 0+0=0 every time, but then i don't have a higher degree that tells me differently. I find the idea of a universe that originated itself from absolute nothingness to be as absolutely illogical as the idea that Absolute reality could incarnate as 1 human being who dies on cross.

Basic geometry tells us that 3 dimensional objects (a cube) can't exist w/o 2 dimensional planes (square); that those can't exist w/o 1 dimensional lines which is a series of dimensionless points. That being obvious how can 3 dimensional matter be the fundamental nature of Reality, when even modern astrophysicists have determined that there was a time at the beginning of the cosmos when there were no light/atoms/matter. Sounds a bit like genesis to me.

Some of his conclusions about religious people/history are pretty over-simplified. For example, perhaps the reason that people leave religion in greater numbers as they advance academically has more to do with willingness of students to accept the dogma of current scientific paradigms than absolute truthfulness those paradigms present. Why would an intelligent human being who principally disagrees with current materialist paradigms, why would they go incur thousands of dollars in debt in student loans to work in a field dominated by people who, as Dr. Tyson explains, dominate the field?

Also, using the number of Muslim Nobel prize winners is only a valid statistic if the parties who nominate candidates were diverse, impartial & without a paradigm bias. I find it doubtful that a small bunch of Swedes that nominate hawkish American presidents, politicians & wartime generals for their "Peace" prize really fit that bill.

Thirdly, positing that the end of the Islamic period of history that spawned the western renaissance is due to one scholars opinion on math, is pretty over-simplistic view of history, it as though Ghazali was universally regarded like a Christian pope or something, which he is/was not. It is also an oversimplification of Ghazali's view on math, which was not that it was "bad" in & of itself, but rather that the problem lies in the minds of secular scientists. For a more complete understanding of what Ghazali actually said you could read this: www.suhaibwebb.com...

Fourthly, Dr. Tyson fails to mention that the advances in science, technology & medicine by the Islamic civilizations that provided the foundations of the renaissance, were a natural outflow of the spiritual beliefs of Islamic civilization founded on a conviction that religious truth & scientific inquiry are not at odds, but rather science represents relative/temporal human understanding approaching Eternal/Absolute/Divine Truth expressed in religious scripture. Failures of current "islamic" countries (if there is one today) to reconcile science & spirituality could be traced to western colonialism that established a scholastic system that forcibly tracks higher achieving students into secular fields & lower achieving students into religious sciences.

Finaly, a rational person could easily label secular science [which has failed to offer a holistic paradigm, answers to the deepest questions of life (where are we from? where are we going? what's the point of all this?), or an ethical system to guide new scientific knowledge] and the technologies it produced from that science has succeeded in producing world wars, nuclear bombs, near total destruction of biosphere & a looming environmental catstrophe unknown in "religious" pre-scientific civilization all as "work of the devil".

Perhaps the small percentage of scientific specialists who believe in a Creator aren't so much an aberration to "natural" science as the scholastically entrained biases of secular materialism itself. Maybe like the small percentage of plants that can break through the concrete, they are able to retain a more natural humanity in the face of artificial paradigms laid down over the natural world.
[/quote

edit on 8-3-2015 by mekhanics because: (no reason given)

a reply to: mekhanics

Missing link?

It cannot be sheer coincidence that it's always religious folk that make such statements while talking about apparent 'dogmas' in science...

originally posted by: mekhanics

Instead of quoting all those wrong people, we could just quote al-Ghazali himself. How about that?

“The mathematical sciences…nothing in them entails denial or affirmation of religious matters…from them, however, two evils have been caused…”
“One of these is that whoever takes up these mathematical sciences marvels at the fine precision of their details and the clarity of their proofs. Because of that, he forms a high opinion of the philosophers [who were the mathematicians at that time] and assumes that all their sciences have the same lucidity and rational solidarity as this science of mathematics. Moreover, he will have heard the talk of the town about their unbelief and their negative attitude. [They say]: ‘If religion were true, this would not have been unknown to these philosophers […]’”
“How many a man have I seen who strayed from the path of truth on this pretext and for no other reason!”
“The second evil likely to follow from the study of the mathematical sciences derives from the case of an ignorant friend of Islam who supposed that our religion must be championed by the rejection of every science ascribed to the philosophers…”
www.virtualmosque.com...

That last sentence is one of the more ironic I've read lately.

al-Ghazali's words put a halt to the widespread study of mathematics and science. He believed it should be left to just the few who could handle scientific insight and not lose their faith. For the population at large, that was the beginning of the Muslim dark ages.