Why I don't believe "climate change" experts

originally posted by: amazing
My problem is this.

If we don't believe the vast majority of scientists and scientific organizations and associations on Climate change/Global Warming, then why should we believe them on vaccinations, evolution, gravity, Astronomy, general medical care, biology etc. Can we really cherry pick what we believe?

the hillbilly right-wing doesn't believe in any of those...well maybe gravity...but, even that is just a "theory"

a reply to: jimmyx

Just to make an even handed reply:

And the pseudo-intellectual condescending arrogant left fall for it hook line and sinker
and proceed to falsely link belief in it as absolutely required
if you believe in clean air, water, etc.

Grab your Harvard and Yale flags and cling to your belief
in global warming as if it were the bible
and absolutely positively unequivocally true
and call everyone else as nasty of names as you can think of
to try and prove your point
because name calling and false linkage to environmentalism
appears to be at the crux of the "proofs" for true believers
of this nearly religious fanaticism about global warming.

While denying the reality
of ice core samples
and
of geology
which proves without a doubt
that ice ages
and global warming (far worse than we are seeing today)
were around long long long before man was
and no people were around then to cause it.
This is a natural cycle and humans have become so arrogant and self centered
as to believe it started with them and that humans can stop it.
Ridiculous!

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Most "armchair scientists" here seem to agree that cleaning up the environment is necessary and good and paying for legitimate environmental cleanup is good, clean water, clean air etc.


It is the phoney "carbon credits" trumped up by the Global Warming fanatics
that we object to paying for because they will only enrich the already rich,
the politicians and their cronies.

Ah so are you saying that the climate change deniers actually accept man-made climate change and are only opposed to the current methods of tackling it as they think it's a conspiracy by the rich to increase their fortunes and not because they themselves might have to sacrifice something?....

originally posted by: Ultralight
a reply to: grandmakdw
Those who fall for the global warming hoax are as committed to it being valid as we are it being a big, fat lie. Personally, I agree with you on most of what you say. But I gotta tell you...I recently came down the Tehachapi pass into Bakersfield (aka: armpit capital of CA) and the smog was extremely reminiscent of those 60's - 70's days of old in the Los Angeles basin. I am still coughing up a lung.

I was just unfortunate enough to have lived my first 19 years of life in Bakersfield (which I call the crotch of the central valley).

The reason the smog is so bad there is (at least) two-fold:

1. All of the smog from Sacramento down all travels south toward Bakersfield and gets trapped there, as much of it can't make it over the Grapevine in order to keep going on trucking, and

2. The incessant heat, high-pressure systems (which generally equate to low winds, if any), and lack of rain that plague the area aid in the stagnancy of the smog.

Bakersfield is surrounded by three sides with mountains, and you were lucky to be able to make any of them out on any given day unless it was breezy or had just rained.

Bakersfield is why I have asthma...presumabley.

For all the best grist for the denier mill, one has to go to where the most rigorous denials stem from.

That would be the Heartland Institute.

Far better to research what these most fervent deniers are saying than to just come up with your own personal opinions as to why Climate Change is a global hoax.

Have fun.

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: amazing
My problem is this.

If we don't believe the vast majority of scientists and scientific organizations and associations on Climate change/Global Warming, then why should we believe them on vaccinations, evolution, gravity, Astronomy, general medical care, biology etc. Can we really cherry pick what we believe?

What are we if we don't questions "the experts"
way too often what the experts say is true today is false tomorrow
or as in the case of climate change
exactly the opposite.

Everyone should always question and think for themselves.

No leaps or scientific advances were ever make by accepting
what the experts say and not challenging the status quo.

If you want to accept everything the experts say as the gospel truth
then you are doomed to be a sheeple your entire life.

Not only that, historically, the "experts" have ALWAYS been wrong to one extent or another. When people start saying we should just accept EVERYTHING the experts say and not think about it, I get VERY WARY if not down right # in my pants scared...

Jaden

a reply to: masqua

Climate change is not a hoax... No one is saying that... What CANNOT be denied is that every prediction these #tards have made has proven to be wrong. It is so disingenuous to call people who call the false predictors on their BS "climate change deniers".

Even if the numbers haven't been fudged (although they have), what has happened thus far is absolutely NOTHING to be worried about and doesn't show causality at ALL!!!!

That people claim it does is the only falsehood.

If you want to call them anything, call them AGW deniers, but the left is always disingenuous...so I don't expect that to change...

Jaden

a reply to: SlapMonkey

With all that smog, has it gotten hotter there???

That would interesting to know...

If CO2 caused global warming is even POSSIBLE, the places that accumulate the most low level CO2 should be blazingly hotter than it was in the past...

Jaden

Heres my thing, like I mentioned on another thread.........

If its so detrimental why arent places like this:



Being taken to task for what they are doing? Honestly , the left say we intervene in countries all the time for other things, if this is so dire then why arent Global Warmest lobbying for OTHER countries and putting political and economic pressure on them to change THEIR output? Because they are obviously the problem...

Conspicuously it seems that its only the West that is the target of things like this.....

Does that not ring any bells for anyone? the UK and the US are the ones really being pressured and really being milked for this.....

All the while Those huge other countries pumping out billions in toxic smog arent dealt with at all.....and they completely offset anything WE can do even if we went COMPLETELY SOLAR or WIND or whatever and shut down every factory that put out anything nasty, it still would not matter, NOT with people like China and India ....

Thats what makes it glaring to me that this is all about money, and optics for the left, they want to look like they care, they want to appear to be morally superior, they want to BRING IN THE REVENUE......

People will say "oh well weve talked to these people and these people" but really there hasnt been any pressure......

Again if this wasnt the case, then they would be heavily involved in doing something about it with other countries...THey are passionate in US and UK politics about it , marches , signs, protests, etc etc.....but I dont see any of that enthusiasm to make sure other countries comply

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
Again if this wasnt the case, then they would be heavily involved in doing something about it with other countries...THey are passionate in US and UK politics about it , marches , signs, protests, etc etc.....but I dont see any of that enthusiasm to make sure other countries comply

If you don't look after your own house, why would you expect anyone else to listen to you when you point at other peoples houses?

Try to think of the bigger picture, and to remember that it's 'climate change' not 'global warming'.

a reply to: Prezbo369

Try to think of the bigger picture, and to remember that it's 'climate change' not 'global warming'.

I am looking at the bigger picture, thats why I stated they needed to start taking the actual problem countries to task and actually doing something about it instead of standing around trying to one up each other.......

That is , if their concern is genuine ....

a reply to: grandmakdw

I understand your problem now. After 10+ pages of this thread, I get it. You've got yourself so wrapped up in bits and pieces of scientific evidence that you've confused yourself. You've become so confused that you've convinced yourself that none of the evidence is true.

You've forced yourself out of objectivity and logic, 'CFC's cause global cooling,' 'carbon credits.'

This thread is chock-full of misunderstanding of the science. You're absolutely convinced that you're being lied to because you simply don't understand and have been told, specifically, only parts of the findings. I mean, I can give you direct links to hundreds, if not thousands, of peer reviewed papers that, when collectively analyzed, show that oceans are warming and becoming more acidic, greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere are increasing, glaciers are disappearing and all of it can be linked to human activity.

I won't tell you any of that. I won't send you links to the papers. You won't believe me anyway. To you, science is unchanging and anytime that information changes then either it's a lie or the original understanding was wrong.

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
a reply to: Prezbo369

Try to think of the bigger picture, and to remember that it's 'climate change' not 'global warming'.

I am looking at the bigger picture, thats why I stated they needed to start taking the actual problem countries to task and actually doing something about it instead of standing around trying to one up each other.......

That is , if their concern is genuine ....

Why would anyone listen if we didn't have our own house's in order?

Pointing out someone else's mess and using that as an excuse to not clean house helps no-one.

Whereas showing by example....

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
a reply to: Prezbo369

Try to think of the bigger picture, and to remember that it's 'climate change' not 'global warming'.

I am looking at the bigger picture, thats why I stated they needed to start taking the actual problem countries to task and actually doing something about it instead of standing around trying to one up each other.......

That is , if their concern is genuine ....

Why would anyone listen if we didn't have our own house's in order?

Pointing out someone else's mess and using that as an excuse to not clean house helps no-one.

Whereas showing by example....

........because compared to the other parts of the world the UK and the US are doing really really good , we utilize wind power, have some of the largest solar and wind generation areas in the world....

Not to mention our emission standards for vehicles and for our factories.....

Seriously look at the air quality here compared to other parts of the world.....

This is just deflection away from the issue that this is all a money and political game aimed at the west and the UK

Again nothing is being done about the places that are the real problem, if we completely reverted the UK and the US back to the stone age, it would still not fix the issue if what the Man Made climate models say are true (again i dont think they are)...

If the models are true and the US and UK stopped producing ANY MORE EMISSIONS OR POLUTANTS, places like India and China would still pump enough (according to what global warmers models say) to keep us on the fast track for their version of dooms day......

Again tho, this isnt about truth this is about revenue and politics, which is why nothing will be done about the other nations

originally posted by: Masterjaden
a reply to: masqua

Climate change is not a hoax... No one is saying that... What CANNOT be denied is that every prediction these #tards have made has proven to be wrong. It is so disingenuous to call people who call the false predictors on their BS "climate change deniers".

Except nearly all the predictions by actual scientists have come true, and certainly enough that the original hypothesis is heavily confirmed and competing hypotheses not confirmed by the evidence.

Even if the numbers haven't been fudged (although they have), what has happened thus far is absolutely NOTHING to be worried about and doesn't show causality at ALL!!!!

It's the laboratory experiments and understanding of physics which confirm the causality. It's a physics problem, not a statistics problem.

The measurements show the magnitude of the effect in the atmosphere.

If the causal physical understanding wasn't there, i.e. it was a correlation without good explanation, then the suitable level of skepticism and uncertainty would be higher. But it isn't. The detailed mechanistic physics, down to the atom, is very well established and so we know, for sure, as every bit as sure as we know where Jupiter will be 13 years from now, that the climate forcing will continue to rise and rise faster and faster and it's man's fault.

That people claim it does is the only falsehood.

To be gentle, you are profoundly ignorant about the history and depth of the science on this issue. It was recognized as significant in the 1960's through research sponsored by those "leftist" institutions known as the Air Force and Navy.

It didn't start as any left or right or any such nonsense---only the right in one country started illogically denying it.

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
Heres my thing, like I mentioned on another thread.........

If its so detrimental why arent places like this:

Being taken to task for what they are doing?

They are. The Chinese Communist party accepts the reality of greenhouse induced global warming, unlike the US Republican party.

But there are rich people with coal plants in China too.

And nobody remotely forgets them. I have been at lectures by actual "global warmers", i.e. ones who publish professionally on the subject and use quantitative models backed by empirical facts (both climate and economic), and it's very clear that most of the future growth in emissions from today comes from developing world, though most of the historical input was from current developed world.

The warming we get comes from the total amount of greenhouse gases added to atmosphere regardless of when, and that is both past, present and future emissions---everybody is responsible.

originally posted by: Masterjaden
a reply to: SlapMonkey

With all that smog, has it gotten hotter there???

That would interesting to know...

If CO2 caused global warming is even POSSIBLE, the places that accumulate the most low level CO2 should be blazingly hotter than it was in the past...

CO2 is a well mixed gas in the atmosphere. The bulk of the radiative effect where changes result in the biggest difference comes from the concentration in the stratosphere. A little bit extra locally from the ground-level exhaust doesn't make it noticably warmer locally, only after it takes years to mix around.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

You have my sympathy!! Bakersfield is a horrid.

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

My friend... If your neighbors yard is piled full of trash are you going to stop caring about yours, stop bothering, let yours pile up until he cleans up his?

a reply to: grandmakdw

I say don't believe in the People if you don't want to, but if you simply look at photos of glaciers all over the world in severe retreat, it is undeniable. Glacier National Park is losing its glaciers. The glaciers in my valley are going away. In Greenland, a great deal of land is now uncovered from ice. The glaciers in the Alps are shrinking. The glaciers in the Andes are going away. Island countries in the South Pacific and other ocean areas are recording higher waters that are infiltrating their lands and making them unable to grow food due to the salt in the water higher up in the ground water. Don't believe in people, just open your eyes to hard facts and easily documented history. The photos taken over the last 150 years don't lie, they record glaciers in vacation pictures from ordinary people, not some government agency. You don't have faith in government agencies or scientists or university studies or researchers.... just examine photos from the past and compare them to the present. IF you have an open mind.