Jesus' house discovered

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Scholars have found no historical records that Jesus existed.. Yet they have found his house..?

For those that are ignorant of history and the ways of ''religions'' (enforced belief /power systems) in making sure you believe just as they want you to, try looking beyond that which you are told by scripture and read some history.

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Pagan Destruction Chronology (314-870 C.E)
Source: Demolish Them!
Vlassis R. Rassias, Es Edafos Ferein - «Ες Έδαφος Φέρειν»
edisi ke-2, Athens, 2000, ISBN 960-7748-20-4

314 Immediately after its full legalization, the Christian Church attacks the gentiles (non-Christians). The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.
324 The emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman empire. In Dydima, Minor Asia, he sacks the Oracle of the god Apollo and tortures the pagan priests to death. He also evicts all non-Christian peoples from Mount Athos and destroys all the local Hellenic temples.
326 Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the temple of the god Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many temples of the goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc.
330 Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the pagan temples of Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.
335 Constantine sacks many pagan temples of Minor Asia and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of "all magicians and soothsayers." Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatrus.
341 Flavius Julius Constantius persecutes "all the soothsayers and the Hellenists." Many gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.
346 New large scale persecutions against non-Christian peoples in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as a "magician".
353 An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifices and "idols".
354 A new edict orders the closing of all the pagan temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of pagan priests.
354 A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the pagan temples and the execution of all "idolaters". First burning of libraries in various cities of the empire. The first lime factories are being organised next to the closed pagan temples. A major part of the holy architecture of the pagans turns to lime.
357 Constantius outlaws all methods of divination (astrology not excluded).
359 In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organize the first death camps for the torture and executions of the arrested non-Christians from all around the empire.
361 to 363 Religious tolerance and restoration of the pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the pagan emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.
363 Assassination of Julianus (26th June).
364 Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch.
364 An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all those that worship their ancestral gods or practice divination ("sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi curiositas"). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of the pagan temples and the death penalty for participation in pagan rituals, even private ones.
365 An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids the gentile (pagan) officers of the army to command Christian soldiers.
370 Valens orders a tremendous persecution of non-Christian peoples in all the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other non-Christians, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the squares of the cities of the Eastern Empire. All the friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.
372 Valens orders the governor of Minor Asia to exterminate all the Hellenes and all documents of their wisdom.
373 New prohibition of all divination methods. The term "pagan" (pagani, villagers, equivalent to the modern insult, "peasants") is introduced by the Christians to demean non-believers.
375 The temple of god Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down by the Christians.
380 On 27th February, Christianism becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman empire by an edict of the emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that:
All the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter.

The non-Christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind". In another edict, Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe to the Christian God and outlaws all disagreements with the Church dogmas. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the pagan temples of his area. The Christian priests lead the hungry mob against the temple of goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 years old hierophant Nestorius ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race.
381 On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives of all their rights the Christians that return back to the pagan religion. In all the Eastern Empire the pagan temples and Libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws even simple visits to the temples of the Hellenes. In Constantinople, the temple of goddess Aphrodite is turned to a brothel and the temples of Sun and Artemis to stables.
382 "Hellelujah" ("Glory to Yahweh") is imposed in the Christian mass.
384 Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated Christian, to cooperate with the local bishops and destroy the temples of the pagans in Northern Greece and Minor Asia.
385 to 388 Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and bishop "Saint" Marcellus with his gangs scour the countryside and sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic temples, shrines and altars. Among others they destroy the temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the temple of Zeus in Apamea, the temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent pagans from all sides of the empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.
386 Theodosius outlaws (16th June) the care of the sacked pagan temples.
388 Public talks on religious subjects are outlawed by Theodosius. The old orator Libanius sends his famous epistle "Pro Templis" to Theodosius with the hope that the few remaining Hellenic temples will be respected and spared.
389 to 390 All non-Christian date-methods are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood the cities of the Middle East and Egypt and destroy statues, altars, libraries and pagan temples, and lynch the pagans. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against non-Christian peoples, turns the temple of Dionysos into a Christian church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the temple of Zeus and burlesques the pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The Christian mob profanes the cult images.
391 On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to pagan temples but also looking at the vandalized statues. New heavy persecutions all around the empire.

a reply to: windword

You continue to misinterpret or misconstrue my posts. I have and do continue to claim that JESUS CHRIST most certainly NEVER existed, and ALL of the biblical narrative of his magical birth, the miracles of his life and death are unsubstantiated in historical evidence. I have argued against the historicity of the biblical Jesus Christ and for the possible composite figure of Jesus Christ..

Well, I must apologize then. I hope you can understand why it might be so easy for me to misinterpret what you are claiming when your claims are constantly changing. You have argued against the historicity of Jesus many times on this website. In fact, you are involved in almost every single debate on the subject on this website and have supported the mythicist scenario ad nauseum. Even when myself and others have argued the subject from a purely historical perspective (i.e not attempting to portray Jesus as a miracle worker or even the son of God) you have argued that he never existed, or when cornered, played semantics on the term "Christ" as you are doing now. It's easy to complain you are being misconstrued when you are constantly shifting the goal posts.

However, I have always argued that if one Jesus of Nazareth existed, he was Jesus the Nazarene. not of Nazareth, and that he was an Essene master.

Yet you have provided no evidence for this, and completely ignored all the evidence that suggests he was indeed from Nazareth, and did indeed live in the early part of the 1st century.

He most likely lived and died around 175-50BC, and had little to no resemblence Jesus Christ.

No, he most likely lived from 5BC to about 35AD, give or take a few years. As for whether or not he performed the miracles the bible reports, that hasn't been the debate. The debate has been on the topic of whether or not the gospels were based on a real person (to say nothing of the extra biblical accounts which state that he did infact perform miracles).

28And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; 29and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff. 30But passing through their midst, He went His way.

I went and looked this passage up, because I remember it being said that Nazareth was a town in the new testament. It turns out we are both right. The King James version uses "city" both times, but the greek uses 2 different terms: πόλεως (or poleōs) which is commonly translated as "city" and πόλις (polis) which is translated as "town".

Nobody said that Jerusalem didn't have a synagogue and expensive scrolls. But a tiny settlement like Nazareth certainly didn't.

Jerusalem had the temple, which is the word you used. As for Nazareth, why would you assume that there were no scrolls in Nazareth considering there was an essene community quite near by, as well as a synagogue in Magdala, which was a stones throw away? Why do you assume any scroll Jesus must have been reading from in Nazareth was "expensive"?

The link you've posted isn't a synagogue in Nazareth.

Yes, that would appear to be my mistake. This particular discovery was in Magdala. I seem to recall reading about a recent discovery of a similar building in Nazareth. I will have to dig more to find the original link.

There wasn't any such thing there.

And you know this how?

It's more likely that Jesus would have been reading the "Book of Elijah" from Mt Carmel, the Essene stronghold, where they had scrolls, a synagogue of sorts, a lot of elders and where they have a cave that they kept holy and enshrined as "Elijah's Cave".

The scroll Jesus is said to have read from in Nazareth was from the book of Isaiah, not Elijah. Jesus uses Elijah after reading from Isaiah to illustrate his point.

In the end, I know this is an exercise in futility anyways. I'd just like to point out that while there is certainly no way we can know for sure if Jesus actually lived in the house referenced in the OP, it isn't the only one of its kind found in Nazareth. The archaeological evidence is becoming more and more clear that Nazareth was a small village during the time of Jesus, despite your claims to the contrary. I can't be bothered to find the thread where you made the claim, as I would be sifting through hundreds of pages of material for hours, but you even went so far as to claim that Nazareth wasn't inhabited in the 1st century simply because Josephus never mentioned it. Curiously, the fact Josephus mentions Jesus by name TWICE (yes, that same Jesus) doesn't seem to matter to you.

Oh well. Round and round we go! Looks like only one of the narratives is being vindicated with evidence (or should I say even more evidence).

Here is more information.

Jesus used a magic wand?
The Pagan origins of Christianity
www.thenazareneway.com...
Nazareth
www.washingtonpost.com...

Thank you for the info, OP.

As for the rest of the thread...Some of these comments are truly ignorant and sad. Many just appear to be a flat out attack on Christianity and Jesus in general.

MAN created religion...Jesus just taught us what life is all about. He was ALL ABOUT LOVE.

Theres more than enough evidence out there (for me) that supports that Jesus did, in fact, exist.

Whether or not you choose to believe what the Bible tells you is just that, your choice. No sense in flaming other ATS members for believing in what they choose to believe in and what they base their faith on.

a reply to: DeadSeraph

I hope you can understand why it might be so easy for me to misinterpret what you are claiming when your claims are constantly changing. You have argued against the historicity of Jesus many times on this website.

BS! I'm getting sick of you telling me that my claims change simply because you're unable to grasp and/or follow my intellectual argument. I never changed my claims that Jesus Christ never existed and that there is NO evidence that he did.

Jesus The Nazarene is NOT the same being as the biblical Jesus Christ or as Jesus of Nazareth, in my arguments.

Yet you have provided no evidence for this, and completely ignored all the evidence that suggests he was indeed from Nazareth, and did indeed live in the early part of the 1st century.

Not in this thread. But, I've provided tons of sourced information and evidence in my posts in various threads on the subject. There is NO evidence that biblical Jesus was from Nazareth. I suppose that you think this house is? It's called bias confirmation.

No, he most likely lived from 5BC to about 35AD, give or take a few years.

LOL! Where are you getting your information on the date of the Essene's Teacher of Righteousness?

I went and looked this passage up, because I remember it being said that Nazareth was a town in the new testament. It turns out we are both right. The King James version uses "city" both times, but the greek uses 2 different terms: πόλεως (or poleōs) which is commonly translated as "city" and πόλις (polis) which is translated as "town".

It doesn't matter. A town has a commerce center, an inn, a bank and some sort of judicial and legal protection, as well as a place of worship. Nazareth had none of that and wasn't even a village, let alone a city or a town.

The scroll Jesus is said to have read from in Nazareth was from the book of Isaiah, not Elijah. Jesus uses Elijah after reading from Isaiah to illustrate his point.

Whatever. The Jesus narrative is aligned with Elijah. It is written that Jesus claimed that John the Baptist was Elijah, Elijah was supposedly seen with Jesus at The Transmutation, and Jesus couldn't have been claimed to have been the Messiah without Elijah, as it was written in the book of Micah.

Looks like only one of the narratives is being vindicated with evidence (or should I say even more evidence).

You have NOT been vindicated. You Christians look sillier and sillier, desperately grasping at straws for any kind of contrived evidence of your ridiculous superstition stuff!

I think this is a bunch of fabricated nonsense. At the very least it's extreme reckless speculation, combined with wild pipe dream assumptions. ~$heopleNation

a reply to: Stormdancer777

Hey Storm, at my house we're celebrating the find!

House PARTY for Jesus!



Party at my house from now to sunday night.
You should try and make it. That's right ATS
come one come all baby!

a reply to: Kantzveldt
Well thats cool. But the whole thing is misleading, dont think that's his house even if he once lived there or its likely Josephs and marry house. But if that was actually his house, well finally we can put to rest this whole thing about Jesus and his carpeting skills.

I mean they say he was a carpenter, so we can now finally judge how good of a carpenter he was if they actually do find the mounds of clay and earth that was his house. Though obviously carpentry skills from way back then and today are and were nothing alike, and would not be easy to do since it would be nothing but a mound of dirt by now if they actually did find anything, that to compare upon anything but clay and rock and dirt, much less woodwork which would have been rotted and gone long ago, would be quite impossible by now. But you know.

And after that, and its been proven that Jesus was actually a competent carpenter, which may be a hoax or misinformation that he was a carpenter at all. Then I suppose we can get to the whole if Jesus existed thing.

a reply to: NavyDoc
Ha! It would be almost impossible to say who lived there. Even if an actual carpenter lived there if and or not he was Jesus, likely any such tools would not just be left laying around in the long centuries of that place.

So ya! even if it was an actual carpentry shop at one point full of tools, all those tools would have eventually traveled elsewhere or been used by other or sold and bought and who knows what, by the time any such place is left abandoned and to rot, you can bet ancient people would have taken anything of value from it away.

Even most archeological digs they only find things which were left there because something happened, like war, fire, or some sort of religious burial rights, and who know what. But most useful tools would not just be left there in any house in any town across the ancient world for the better part of 3,000 something years just because.

This place may have been an early get together for nazarines or prechirstians to get together in worship and whatever they did, but it would be practically to impossible to even know who it belonged to if any, much less in a place like that which saw change from different empires to warloards to rulers to countless strife's and wars all thought those 3,000 something odd years.

So ya! saying its the place were Jesus lived is quite a stretch, if anything it may have been a place of importance once which got build over in latter times and so on the tradition continued, but by now even the importance or if it was the actual house or just another worship house used by the nazarines/early Christians is pretty much anybody's guess.

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: Kantzveldt

This is great evidence that Jesus is real. Did they find any ancient writings in the house or area?

There are very few religions, scholars, experts, archaeologists etc. that do not believe Jesus existed. That the person lived is not really in much of any doubt whatsoever. The question isn't whether he lived or not, the question is whether he was the Christ or not. That question honestly cannot be answered, it is up to every individual to make that determination.

originally posted by: bronco73

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: Kantzveldt

This is great evidence that Jesus is real. Did they find any ancient writings in the house or area?

There are very few religions, scholars, experts, archaeologists etc. that do not believe Jesus existed. That the person lived is not really in much of any doubt whatsoever. The question isn't whether he lived or not, the question is whether he was the Christ or not. That question honestly cannot be answered, it is up to every individual to make that determination.

Well theres a member I haven't seen in awhile!

Also, you are 100% correct. Unfortunately, getting that point across to certain individuals is pretty much impossible. Bias is a formidable force.

These archeologists are silly. All they have to do to determine if this was Jesus' house is look for all his grade school father-son event awards. Oh, who won the father-son three-legged race? Who do you think, Jesus and his dad, GOD. He should have like, 50 of those awards laying around somewhere in that house.

originally posted by: Blackmarketeer
These archeologists are silly. All they have to do to determine if this was Jesus' house is look for all his grade school father-son event awards. Oh, who won the father-son three-legged race? Who do you think, Jesus and his dad, GOD. He should have like, 50 of those awards laying around somewhere in that house.

LMAO!

Ok, that made me laugh. Awesome

One thing I have always wondered about christians. If their faith is so strong then why are they always seeking vindication ???

originally posted by: bronco73

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: Kantzveldt

This is great evidence that Jesus is real. Did they find any ancient writings in the house or area?

There are very few religions, scholars, experts, archaeologists etc. that do not believe Jesus existed. That the person lived is not really in much of any doubt whatsoever. The question isn't whether he lived or not, the question is whether he was the Christ or not. That question honestly cannot be answered, it is up to every individual to make that determination.

That has got to be the most non-sensical paragraph I have ever read. Absolute and utter rubbish from the start.

Next thing will be some imbecile finding a wooden handle that was once part of an ancient hammer.

Then these idiots will claim that it was excavated near a possible lavatory, and that it is most likely Jesus's petrified stool.

😊 ~$heopleNation

originally posted by: Gideon70
One thing I have always wondered about christians. If their faith is so strong then why are they always seeking vindication ???

That tends to be a natural human reaction when you are constantly being told a major part of your beliefs is based on a fairytale. Take the existence of pontius pilate for instance. We've known from the writings of tacitus that Pilate existed, as he was named as the individual who had Jesus crucified. However, for many years Christ Mythicists claimed that Tacitus writings on Jesus (and specifically Pilate) were Christian fabrications, and that not only did Jesus not exist, but neither did Pilate. Archaeology eventually proved that accusation to be incorrect, with the discovery of the pilate stone in the 60's.

So while I wouldn't describe christians as "always seeking vindication", I think you will find they are more than happy when it occurs, since the usual argument is that there is no historical evidence to support events in the new testament (which is constantly being proven false, with every passing decade of modern archaeological research in Israel).

originally posted by: Gideon70

originally posted by: bronco73

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: Kantzveldt

This is great evidence that Jesus is real. Did they find any ancient writings in the house or area?

There are very few religions, scholars, experts, archaeologists etc. that do not believe Jesus existed. That the person lived is not really in much of any doubt whatsoever. The question isn't whether he lived or not, the question is whether he was the Christ or not. That question honestly cannot be answered, it is up to every individual to make that determination.

That has got to be the most non-sensical paragraph I have ever read. Absolute and utter rubbish from the start.

It is not rubbish. It's the truth. You would know that if you bothered researching the subject. The statement that very few scholars doubt the historical existence of Jesus is 100% true. The majority of scholars in many different fields have conceded that Jesus almost certainly existed as a historical figure (be they religious or not), and there is a wealth of information out there as to why they have drawn that conclusion. Just because you can't be bothered to consider any of the evidence due to your own bias does not make broncos statement "non-sensical" or "rubbish".

Even this guy had to backtrack once he reviewed the evidence:

a reply to: purplemer

Kind of hard to maintain Jesus never existed when archaeologists have found his house...unless he was the local Holy ghost.



a reply to: galadofwarthethird

Yes it was in tradition the House of Joseph but we can perhaps assume that as he is no longer in the picture later on it had passed to the eldest son, but anyway the early church seemed more interested in the House of Mary and the annunciation were the more impressive structure was built.