9 things you think you know about Jesus that are probably wrong

a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

Where would you get the impression that it works?

It built Western civilization, which, contra Gandhi, I regard as a Good Thing (on the whole).

The notion that belief in an imaginary god/man is necessary to for ethics and morality is rejected by the facts themselves.

Which facts would those be? I alluded earlier to the fact that the development of civilized ethics in modern society has reached the point where, for an increasing number of otherwise quite ordinary people, it is no longer necessary to instil the fear of divine punishment in order to produce moral behaviour. So that point is already granted.

The state of man's relations with his neighbour before and after the coming of Christian civilization (which only really appeared in my part of the world in about 1500AD, and not until the nineteenth century in most of Africa) need only be compared in order to see the benefits of Christianity. Yes, I'm aware of the Inquisition, the violence of the Reformation, witch-burnings and frightful things that were done to non-Christian peoples (such as some of my ancestors) in the name of Christ. Taking all of that into account, I still think the concept of extending altruism to individuals outside one's kinship or tribal grouping, also known as 'loving thy neighbour as thyself', has been an enormous force for good in the world; perhaps the greatest such force ever to have existed.

It has penetrated far beyond Christianity, and beyond Christendom. It informs our philosophy, our laws, our theories of government, our political systems. It is even built into the theories of Karl Marx, and through him has entered the ideals and programmes of revolutionary movements, violent and nonviolent, around the world. It informs, alike, our art and our codes of playground conduct. It is ubiquitous, and it exerts so great a force that we often fail to see it.

Christianity may be a lie, but it has been an enormously valuable one. It probably saved humanity. No, really.

originally posted by: DeadSeraph

originally posted by: Nochzwei

originally posted by: DeadSeraph

originally posted by: Nochzwei
Newton had his failings as he was not Born Again.
a reply to: Wolfenz

Why do you feel that is the case? Just curious.

Because he wouldn't have any doubts about the Holy Trinity, if he was Born Again.

I personally think that is a ridiculous conclusion to draw. I have been baptized, yet I have contemplated the nature of Christ, and subjected the notion of the trinity to serious personal inquiry. Are you suggesting such a gifted Christian as Newton was not saved simply because he might not have shared your ideas about the trinity? If he believed Jesus was the Messiah, died on the cross for the sins of the world, and was raised from the dead, is that not enough for you?

The question is are you Born Again my friend. Seek to be Born Again by His Mighty Grace. His Grace is available to all. Praise The Lord.

a reply to: Astyanax

The golden rule is indeed a beautiful concept

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

If you wanna argue that religious scholars will always blindly say Jesus existed the same goes for atheist researchers looking for evidence for his nonexistence.

There might be some truth to that. Yet there isn't any evidence that would make it a fait accompli as bible scholars claim. That requires a further belief.

Why would the Romans write about a carpenter causing trouble in the empire? The Jews who hate him and wanted his death?

Did they?

The only people who would write about him are his followers, mostly poor.

Very unlikely. The slaughter of the innocents, a faith healer with widespread fame, large crowds, miracles, the unprecedented sanhedrin meeting, the extremely trial and actions of Pilate, darkness, earthquakes. Unlikely to not be written about by anyone at the time. They are part of a myth.

The followers that claim he existed are the ones who actually followed Jesus and wrote as witnesses. So if we prove that these writers excited can we prove that Jesus existed?

If you can show (doubt prove is the correct term here) that contemporaries wrote about him, then he probably existed.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

It built Western civilization, which, pace Gandhi, I regard as a Good Thing (on the whole).

That's a bit of an exaggeration IMO and there were obviously many motives involved in the building of western civilisation. Christianity then (as now) was a good tool for manipulation for those who would enslave and wipe out cultures. It was made the state religion by a certain empire and is nevertheless interwoven into western culture. Now that it is becoming more of a "cultural inheritance" in much of the western world, rather than an actual religious belief, the things it was suppose to instill are becoming possible.

Which facts would those be?

The ones in the paper I cited. Showing that intolerance, various diseases (venereal), crime, incarceration rates, income disparity, unwanted and teen pregnancy, divorce, welfare, juvenile mortality rates and just about everything we would judge a healthy society on...all seem to head in the wrong direction commensurate with religiosity. Have a look at the figures for the US.

Not saying religion is the cause (no one knows), it seems both causal and symptomatic.

Or the more obvious one. You don't see world leaders asking jesus whether or not it is right to mobilise forces, a bit of a worry? Or the fact that in one instance, a modern country would have no real qualms about this to the point of a second term...?

Surely, that is not a healthy thing?

The state of man's relations with his neighbour before and after the coming of Christian civilization (which only really appeared in my part of the world in about 1500AD, and not until the nineteenth century in most of Africa) need only be compared in order to see the benefits of Christianity.

Go on then. Compare. I'm listening.

It has penetrated far beyond Christianity, and beyond Christendom. It informs our philosophy, our laws, our theories of government, our political systems. It is even built into the theories of Karl Marx, and through him has entered the ideals and programmes of revolutionary movements, violent and nonviolent, around the world. It informs, alike, our art and our codes of playground conduct. It is ubiquitous, and it exerts so great a force that we often fail to see it.

Christianity may be a lie, but it has been an enormously valuable one.

Nonsense IMO. It might inform your philosophy, not mine. It was jsut so much nonsense I had to put up with until I reached a certain age (slightly before I gave up on Santa). There are many aspects of law and politics it has negatively affected, marginalising various groups and limiting freedoms for a very long time and needs fixing. Not sure Marx would necessarily agree with you either.

It's shame this group of Palestinians weren't intelligent enough to come up with Buddhism or something at least pertaining to genuine philosophy. It did usher in some useful systems, but a broken clock is right twice a day. Overall it is only as we are seeing through it (religion- yes the modern world is forgetting it in droves) that such things are becoming more of a possibility. I doubt cultures not so influenced were too troubled by that fact alone. You give it far too much credit IMO. It influenced (negatively, in many ways) western culture. It is still influencing it (largely) negatively.

At any rate we have nothing to compare an alternate (non Christianised) western culture to. It's a delusion. It always was. Never a good thing.

originally posted by: Nochzwei
Newton had his failings as he was not Born Again.
a reply to: Wolfenz

???

Issac Newton been around Christianity Since Child hood...

If you looked

And got involved with the Occult Research Involvement Since ... Because of Science and Astrology..

Born Again.. ???

You Mean All things... Dedicated with With God and Jesus... Spiritually

He Found Flawed Faults ... in the Equation Contradicting in Old Original Beliefs in His Era...

Other Words Using Common Sense... then went to the Oldest Sect of Christianity ....

He was also gay. That's why Judas had no reservations about kissing him.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

Seemed a slightly demeaning tone.

The question, though, is who (if anybody) is being demeaned?

Yeah, sure....you must feel terribly demeaned, no hint of bs there. If supplying requested sources (that were readily available on google the whole time) are of less worth due to that fact (on an internet forum) to the point they are beneath you...debunking the sources themselves might be more a fruitful exercise (and usually appreciated).

It was a simple request, not to mention an aside to the point under discussion (a somewhat irrelevant diversion). Nor was it your request, when it is you can request a research paper with citations/bibliography or whatever you like. Go for that attitude if you like but, apology withdrawn for now.

I notice the research paper that was cited, is one you seem happy to ignore (the one completely at odds with your opinion of Christianity being helpful).

Wow. I could feel really angry about being conned for 30 years by a true story of sorts being riddled with many falsehoods, when and wherever it might have originally happened... but I'm actually more bothered that I've just wasted the last ten minutes reading two pages of complete nonsense.
 

Jesus was black!!! I'm out!

originally posted by: VigiliaProcuratio
Wow. I could feel really angry about being conned for 30 years by a true story of sorts being riddled with many falsehoods, when and wherever it might have originally happened... but I'm actually more bothered that I've just wasted the last ten minutes reading two pages of complete nonsense.
 

Or a mythical story that didn't really happen, laced with historical setting (ie. period fiction). You've only wasted ten minutes or so, that's something to be grateful of. Some not only believe, they believe it carries on for eternity.

I dunno, I do believe there's some truth in this somewhere. If so then it has certainly been twisted so far out of proportion that it'll look like the wreck of Princess Diana's car. Thing is, I had never concerned myself with this stuff until very recently so much of it is very new in my mind, but whatever the problem might be there is clearly something which somebody doesn't want anybody knowing about. Maybe it's Christ's head in a cave, maybe it's the cure for cancer, maybe it's ayleuns, maybe it's a missing glyph... I dunno really but nothing is going to be resolved any time soon going by the current predicament.
 

In short Born Again means indwelling of The Holy Ghost in place of your soul. Very few understand this radical truth.

This condition results in a true Christian, which Newton was not.
a reply to: Wolfenz

originally posted by: Nochzwei
In short Born Again means indwelling of The Holy Ghost in place of your soul. Very few understand this radical truth.

This condition results in a true Christian, which Newton was not.
a reply to: Wolfenz

Exactly where is the soul located and where was the Holy Ghost when God (ie. Jesus if you're a fundie) was dead for those three days?

a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

originally posted by: Astyanax
(Christianity) built Western civilization, which, pace Gandhi, I regard as a Good Thing (on the whole).

originally posted by: Cogito, Ergo Sum
That's a bit of an exaggeration IMO and there were obviously many motives involved in the building of western civilisation.

I suppose you mean 'many factors'. However, what sets Western civilization apart from all others are its (relative) egalitarianism and its massive worldwide success, both of which are directly attributable to Christianity. It is the belief that all human beings share immortal souls, and are thus precious to God (who is, the Bible tells us, 'no respecter of persons') that is the root of the egalitarianism. The success is due in large measure to the social unity Christian belief fostered with its doctrines of duty to others and its sense of moral mission; the latter was an important driver of the European imperial project, while the former often made the European conquerors better rulers than the local despots they supplanted,which in turn improved the lot of conquered subjects.

Christian doctrine Christianity then (as now) was a good tool for manipulation for those who would enslave and wipe out cultures.

This is an anachronistic assumption that has little to do with historical reality. Christian missionaries were not some sort of Special PsyOps division of European imperialism. They were genuinely concerned for the souls of the 'natives' they tried to convert. Even a cursory reading of missionary literature (and my readings of it have been far from cursory) will reveal the almost unbelievable hardships missionaries endured. They died like flies, far from home. They weren't doing that just to 'manipulate, enslave and wipe out cultures.' These are the half-baked assumptions of modern popular culture. Scholarship does not support them, unless it is the biased 'scholarship' of political activists in academia.

(Christianity) was made the state religion by a certain empire and is nevertheless interwoven into western culture. Now that it is becoming more of a "cultural inheritance" in much of the western world, rather than an actual religious belief, the things it was suppose to instill are becoming possible.

Have you any idea what the Roman Empire was like before Christianity became its state religion?

The 'facts in the paper you cited' are worse than useless. No study is needed to predict that when societies are in crisis, popular religiosity increases. But which is the cause, and which the effect?

Also, that paper only compares prosperous and highly functional rich-world societies, all but one of them culturally Christian, with one another. That tells us nothing about the effect of Christianity on society whatsoever.

You don't see world leaders asking jesus whether or not it is right to mobilise forces, a bit of a worry?

Not at all. I would be worried if they didn't — unless, of course, they were declared atheists.

Astyanax
The state of man's relations with his neighbour before and after the coming of Christian civilization (which only really appeared in my part of the world in about 1500AD, and not until the nineteenth century in most of Africa) need only be compared in order to see the benefits of Christianity.

Cogito, Ergo Sum
Go on then. Compare. I'm listening.

It is a rather vast field. Compare the behaviour of non-Christian monarchs and pre-Christian despots with that of Christian ones. Compare the social and moral codes of non-Christian societies with Christian ones. And so forth. I am not so interested in convincing you — or winning this argument — that I'm willing to put in the time necessary to collate the information, but it is most certainly there. Rome, mentioned earlier, is a good test case, because it was pagan for centuries, then Christianized, then had a brief pagan relapse under the Emperor Julian before returning to the fold. Go read your classical sources and see if I'm not right.

At any rate we have nothing to compare an alternate (non Christianised) western culture to.

Wrong. As I said, we have the Roman Empire. We also have the historical records of countries like mine, which enable us to compare societies before and after the coming of Christianity.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Nochzwei
In short Born Again means indwelling of The Holy Ghost in place of your soul. Very few understand this radical truth.

This condition results in a true Christian, which Newton was not.
a reply to: Wolfenz

Exactly where is the soul located and where was the Holy Ghost when God (ie. Jesus if you're a fundie) was dead for those three days?

Soul is located inside the human body and second part of your ques only God can answer, though knowing that is of no importance for a Christian

originally posted by: Nochzwei

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Nochzwei
In short Born Again means indwelling of The Holy Ghost in place of your soul. Very few understand this radical truth.

This condition results in a true Christian, which Newton was not.
a reply to: Wolfenz

Exactly where is the soul located and where was the Holy Ghost when God (ie. Jesus if you're a fundie) was dead for those three days?

Soul is located inside the human body and second part of your ques only God can answer, though knowing that is of no importance for a Christian

Exactly where inside the human body?

I would think that knowing where the Holy Ghost was while God was dead for three days would be of vital interest to Christians or does it fall into the category of an unspoken don't ask/don't think membership policy?

originally posted by: Tangerine

Exactly where inside the human body? I would think that knowing where the Holy Ghost was while God was dead for three days would be of vital interest to Christians or does it fall into the category of an unspoken don't ask/don't think membership policy?

Membership? Christianity is not a cult, I'll have you know. Further, Jesus 'died' for three days, not God.

If you want to know where the Spirit lies within then take a look inside of yourself. I'll give you a clue: גן or גו
 

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Nochzwei

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Nochzwei
In short Born Again means indwelling of The Holy Ghost in place of your soul. Very few understand this radical truth.

This condition results in a true Christian, which Newton was not.
a reply to: Wolfenz

Exactly where is the soul located and where was the Holy Ghost when God (ie. Jesus if you're a fundie) was dead for those three days?

Soul is located inside the human body and second part of your ques only God can answer, though knowing that is of no importance for a Christian

Exactly where inside the human body?

I would think that knowing where the Holy Ghost was while God was dead for three days would be of vital interest to Christians or does it fall into the category of an unspoken don't ask/don't think membership policy?

Ugh.
The Bible does say 'cast not thy pearls before swine'

originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: greyer

yeah sure.

The thing that people would least suspect - is that I have absolutely no pride. I am completely different than any man, and not one woman is attracted to me no matter how much I work out, because they are attracted to pride. The world believes in pride in every single action they do, it is like a structure for them to survive. But the greatest thing about fulfilling the Law, is that when we are humble, it means that we give respect to you, even if you do not respect. See, this whole life related to righteousness is secret. Parent teach their children not to respect others unless they earn it. But the ancient Jewish Law says that we have to give pureness out of our heart, to 100 people when 100 people each individually show us rotten disrespect from their heart. But the secret of the Law, is that we understand God to be the judge. We understand righteousness in that it does not matter how people act or what they believe in, it does not change the law, and it does not change righteousness. In this way, I am different than any Christian, and I am different than anybody in the world. But the world and the Christians still judge me. It is the will of the Father that I let them judge me wrongly. The thing is that it is unknown to their minds that their heart is breaking the Law, and I follow the law, which is that I shall love my neighbor and not judge them ever. So can you imagine the whole world hating me because my heart is good, and because I follow the Law? It is true, you cannot be holy unless you are ok with the whole population of the world having hatred in their heart because you are born a Son of Man. It is being humble which makes me think, "if you don't believe I speak the truth from my heart, it is not up to me to judge you if you are right or wrong, even if I believe to know that I am right and you are wrong."

In this respect I hardly feel like divulging the truth, because those prideful men of sin do not deserve to know the truth because they will not honor the truth. It is written that injustice abhors the truth. This was the mind state of the last remnant of holy men from ancient Judah, they didn't even talk to women because women have even more pride than children of sin. But the True Prophet and Righteous Teacher, condemned this last remnant of holy sons of light for the very reason that they kept their righteous truths secret. That is the main difference between the Essenes and the Christians. So in that respect to honor the teachings of Jesus, I will make known what is hidden, and even though the brood of vipers will not make straight the Way of the Lord, I will ignore them for the hope that one person, such as you, may be saved by the truth. Because verily I say unto you not one person in the world in this generation will save you by the truth. They will only doubt you, as you have doubted me. They have no faith in you, nor me, and why? because they are that much further away from the light of truth, again it is not my place to judge that, it is only my place to understand it.