In Defense of Chemtrail Conspiracy Theorists: Part 2. Social Reality

originally posted by: Chadwickus
a reply to: ~Lucidity

What do germ tests have to do with geoengineering?

If you actually want to know (but I doubt it), a history of dubious and unethical open air testing in the USA was done by government agencies and the military as far back as the 1950s. Similarly, geoengineers have made it clear since at least 2012 that they plan to do real testing in the stratosphere because computer models are just not conclusive. That raises valid concern for what exactly are they going to be spraying in the sky, and whether or not anybody can be trusted to have the public's safety in their best interest.

More details on this to follow, but I'm adding my comments much too soon in this thread given I started it.

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
I wonder if these people were suspicious?

Millions were in germ war tests

Was this ever disproved?

One more mention: Read more here about some (but not all) of this testing done on the public without their consent: Secret Testing In the United States

originally posted by: ~Lucidity

Must be your shift, eh?

Ah yes, when challenged, out comes the name calling.

a reply to: Petros312

Lovely.

Airports and Subways
Serratia marcescens bacteria. Open-air testing continued through the 1960s, with the Special Operations Division operatives simulating even more audacious assaults. In 1965 they spread bacteria throughout Washington’s National Airport; a year later, agents dropped light bulbs filled with organisms onto the tracks in New York’s subway system. “I think it spread pretty good,” participant Wally Pannier later said, “because you had a natural aerosol developed every few minutes from every train that went past.”

S. marcescens is implicated in a wide range of serious infections including pneumonia (51), lower respiratory tract infection (112), urinary tract infection (53), bloodstream infection, wound infection and meningitis (72, 74). The organism has also been described as an important cause of ocular infection with high incidence in contact lens-related keratitis (4, 21, 92).

And yet people who don't trust that the government would never do anything to hurt us are social misfits.

a reply to: Petros312

Aren't you doing what you were just criticizing debunkers for doing?

Secret germ warfare tests are nothing like geoengineering tests..

They are two completely different subjects, the only similarities are government+planes=evil!

Which is the clichéd, stereotypical chemtrail conspiracy theorists MO.

Since you insist...

originally posted by: Chadwickus
a reply to: Petros312
Aren't you doing what you were just criticizing debunkers for doing?

--And what specifically was this? An ATS member mentioned something that's related in some way to geoengineering experimentation (i.e., open air tests), and we elaborated on it. I didn't say it "proves" anything other than perhaps a historical lack of concern for the public's safety.

originally posted by: Chadwickus
a reply to: Petros312
Secret germ warfare tests are nothing like geoengineering tests..

--They bear the similarity of being open air tests that can jeopardize the health of the environment and the organisms living there (such as human beings).

originally posted by: Chadwickus
a reply to: Petros312
...government+planes=evil!

Which is the clichéd, stereotypical chemtrail conspiracy theorists MO.

No. Perhaps you base your impression on other content that exists on ATS, but much more is being said in this thread. Rather than engaging in off-topic shifting of the focus of the thread topic, I invite you and others to grasp the concept of social reality and see how it's being used in ways against so-called chemtrail conspiracy theorists and their concerns about geoengineering.

Germs tests on populations is not a social reality, the majority of people do not accept that as truth. Even among ATS, I doubt there would be a consensus.

On the topic of chemtrails, it's unlikely intentional large-scale operations are occurring; small-scale yes. Large-scale Unintentional airplane exhaust that affects climate, yes.

Claiming 50 percent believe one thing, and 50 percent believe another, is thoroughly debunked when one person postulates a third option. It's not to depopulate, or to stop climate change, rather an unintentional consequence that causes climate change. Facts.

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
a reply to: Petros312

Lovely.

Airports and Subways
Serratia marcescens bacteria. Open-air testing continued through the 1960s, with the Special Operations Division operatives simulating even more audacious assaults. In 1965 they spread bacteria throughout Washington’s National Airport; a year later, agents dropped light bulbs filled with organisms onto the tracks in New York’s subway system. “I think it spread pretty good,” participant Wally Pannier later said, “because you had a natural aerosol developed every few minutes from every train that went past.”

S. marcescens is implicated in a wide range of serious infections including pneumonia (51), lower respiratory tract infection (112), urinary tract infection (53), bloodstream infection, wound infection and meningitis (72, 74). The organism has also been described as an important cause of ocular infection with high incidence in contact lens-related keratitis (4, 21, 92).

And yet people who don't trust that the government would never do anything to hurt us are social misfits.

One of the many fallacies common to chemtrail believers. Essentially boils down to "you don't automatically accept and believe what we say, therefore you must trust the government would never do anything to hurt us".

I don't think I've ever come across a debunker who thinks that way but it's something the believers come out with time and again. We're not saying we trust the government or love the government or don't think they could ever do anything bad. What we say is that the evidence presented is bunk.

originally posted by: Petros312

originally posted by: Chadwickus
a reply to: ~Lucidity

What do germ tests have to do with geoengineering?

If you actually want to know (but I doubt it), a history of dubious and unethical open air testing in the USA was done by government agencies and the military as far back as the 1950s. Similarly, geoengineers have made it clear since at least 2012 that they plan to do real testing in the stratosphere because computer models are just not conclusive. That raises valid concern for what exactly are they going to be spraying in the sky, and whether or not anybody can be trusted to have the public's safety in their best interest.

More details on this to follow, but I'm adding my comments much too soon in this thread given I started it.

Yes we know about that, it's been brought up often enough.

It's still no reason to think that those white lines across the sky behind heavy jets seven miles up that look and behave exactly like contrails are anything other than contrails

a reply to: Petros312

Maybe re-read what you said..

And you can see from both the Wiki article and the Washington Post article it's quite obvious that anyone who has suspicions about the activities of geoengineers and their supportors are being lumped into the category of "chemtrail conspiracy theorist." Debunkers at ATS are now racing to make sure the effort to place a stygma on the label "chemtrail conspiracy theory" is maintained, and I'm not surprised.

You then went on about germ warfare tests from years ago and their tenuous link with geoengineering.

How is this me being off topic? I'm directly addressing what you're saying, you're claiming that debunkers are lumping everyone into the crazy chemtrail basket, but then go and fit that bill.

Just sayin.

originally posted by: Chadwickus
a reply to: Petros312
...you're claiming that debunkers are lumping everyone into the crazy chemtrail basket, but then go and fit that bill.

Just sayin.

Deceptive. The main topic was side-tracked momentarily by mention of a history of open air tests done in the USA in and near populated areas. I explained why this is not merely "tenuously" related to the topic of chemtrail conspiracy theories. Additionally, my claim in the original post about the term "chemtrailers" and "chemtrail conspiracy theorists" is manifested by claims like this from above:

originally posted by: Petros312
--"Chemtrailer" has become a catch-all term. Consider the diversity of the claims all being lumped into "chemtrail conspiracy theory" and you see everything from mind control to respiratory illness. The people accused of being unscientific and unreasonable if not flat out delusional include the people who claim that the EPA needs to regulate air traffic for reasons that include jet engine exhaust and contrail formation. The contrails may not be the source of the air pollution (depends on what you mean by "pollution"), but they are still a marker for the jet exhaust released that research supports is the cause of more respiratory illness and deaths.

--and I not only identified two sources from poplar media that exist doing this "lumping" of many different concerns into the same category of "chemtrail conspiracy theory" (Wikipedia and The Washington Post). I also explained how the category is being stigmatized by the social reality being fabricated, which in my estimation it does not deserve, in an effort to preserve the image of geoengineering as nothing but a matter of pure science.

originally posted by: Petros312

originally posted by: Chadwickus
a reply to: Petros312
...you're claiming that debunkers are lumping everyone into the crazy chemtrail basket, but then go and fit that bill.

Just sayin.

Deceptive. The main topic was side-tracked momentarily by mention of a history of open air tests done in the USA in and near populated areas. I explained why this is not merely "tenuously" related to the topic of chemtrail conspiracy theories. Additionally, my claim in the original post about the term "chemtrailers" and "chemtrail conspiracy theorists" is manifested by claims like this from above:

originally posted by: Petros312
--"Chemtrailer" has become a catch-all term. Consider the diversity of the claims all being lumped into "chemtrail conspiracy theory" and you see everything from mind control to respiratory illness. The people accused of being unscientific and unreasonable if not flat out delusional include the people who claim that the EPA needs to regulate air traffic for reasons that include jet engine exhaust and contrail formation. The contrails may not be the source of the air pollution (depends on what you mean by "pollution"), but they are still a marker for the jet exhaust released that research supports is the cause of more respiratory illness and deaths.

--and I not only identified two sources from poplar media that exist doing this "lumping" of many different concerns into the same category of "chemtrail conspiracy theory" (Wikipedia and The Washington Post). I also explained how the category is being stigmatized by the social reality being fabricated, which in my estimation it does not deserve, in an effort to preserve the image of geoengineering as nothing but a matter of pure science.

It's the chemtrail believers who have "lumped" everything in together though. It was THEY who decided chemtrails are for geoengineering. It was THEY who decided that cloud seeding is geoengineering and therefore cloud seeding operations are proof that chemtrails exist. It was THEY who originally decided that the trails in the sky were to poison us all. It was THEY who then decided it was for mind control.

They've made the bed they're lying in

a reply to: Petros312

Geo-engineering is real. It's fact. It's important and needs to be discussed and watched. Most importantly, it needs to be fully understood.

Chemtrails, a weak conspiracy based on the misidentification of contrails. (IMHO) Other than planes being involved, the two subjects should not be in the same ballpark. Most people who have a basic understanding of weather, flight, and clouds, can see that white lines left behind planes are most likely contrails. The people who point to them and scream "chemtrails!" do a fine job on their own making themselves look a bit loony. Sure there is a possibility that chemtrails do exist. And if they did, it's possible that they might look just like contrails. But until more than "well, look at them!" is offered as evidence, sorry to say, most folks will shrug and laugh.

Several folks here are of the opinion that the two subject should be separated to avoid minimizing geo-engineering.

The notion that geoengineering is distinct and discrete from the historical activities of weather modification and control, contrail formation and the study of cirrus clouds on solar radiation management, particularly given aerosol sprays and jet aircraft are indeed involved in all these activities in some manner, is an illusion reinforced by the social reality asserting itself to stigmatize anyone suspected of being a "chemtrail conspiracy theorist." People are branded with the label "chemtrail conspiracy theorists" first after the question many of them ask, "What are they spraying in the sky?" Debunkers on websites like ATS then single out the ones who make errors about what is a contrail, why does it form, what makes a persistent contrail, etc., and supposedly the concern about "What are they spraying in the sky" becomes completely unwarranted. The quick shift from evidence such as the history of weather modification and its associated experimentation, the history of open air testing done in the US in civilian populations, the desire for the US military to own the sky and control weather for "DOD purposes," the outlined plans of the Spice experiment revealed by John Dykema in the UK, the talk of people like David Keith and his associate about releasing sulphur into the stratosphere as an aerosol as the first of experiments to study the effects --all of this disappears in the good name of geoengineering as if it's nothing but a pure science, and that's exactly what proponents of geoengineering like Bill Gates want. You guys know to manufacture consent through social reality.

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Petros312

Geo-engineering is real. It's fact. It's important...

Meaningless, not to mention incorrect:

Geoengineering: "the deliberate large-scale manipulation of an environmental process that affects the earth's climate, in an attempt to counteract the effects of global warming."

Geoengineering is an attempt to obtain knowledge as much as it is an attempt to do something that may be very disastrous based on both faulty science as well as the marriage of faulty science and corrupt politics.

On top of this, getting back to the original topic of the post (which you will undoubtedly continue to shift focus away from) social reality has been constructed to mar the character of anyone suspected of being a "chemtrail conspiracy theorist," and as evidence by the Wikipedia article and The Washington Post mentioned above, even opponents of geoengineering have been put into this stigmatized category of concerned people who have (especially at ATS) been called delusional. It is not THEIR fault they were stigmatized, and in fact anyone who does this is blaming the victims.

originally posted by: Petros312

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Petros312

Geo-engineering is real. It's fact. It's important...

Meaningless, not to mention incorrect:

Geoengineering: "the deliberate large-scale manipulation of an environmental process that affects the earth's climate, in an attempt to counteract the effects of global warming."

Geoengineering is an attempt to obtain knowledge as much as it is an attempt to do something that may be very disastrous based on both faulty science as well as the marriage of faulty science and corrupt politics.

On top of this, getting back to the original topic of the post (which you will undoubtedly continue to shift focus away from) social reality has been constructed to mar the character of anyone suspected of being a "chemtrail conspiracy theorist," and as evidence by the Wikipedia article and The Washington Post, even opponents of geoengineering have been put into this stigmatized category of concerned people who have (especially at ATS) been called delusional. It is not THEIR fault they were stigmatized, and in fact anyone who does this is blaming the victims.

Wait, what? It's important enough for you to post on it. Please explain why you feel geo-engineering isn't important.

And yes, I am of the opinion that someone who clings to the chemtrail theory and refuses to comprehend the science involved in contrails and clouds deserves whatever ridicule they receive. MY OPINION. I agree with the Wiki article.

originally posted by: Petros312
The notion that geoengineering is distinct and discrete from the historical activities of weather modification and control, contrail formation and the study of cirrus clouds on solar radiation management, particularly given aerosol sprays and jet aircraft are indeed involved in all these activities in some manner, is an illusion......

Geoengineering is distinct and separate from chemtrails. You are arguing a point that wasn't made.

......reinforced by the social reality asserting itself to stigmatize anyone suspected of being a "chemtrail conspiracy theorist."

No. Chemtrail conspiracy theorists are the ones who make claims about chemtrails. You are being dishonest in your efforts to twist the argument into what you want it to be.

People are branded with the label "chemtrail conspiracy theorists" first after the question many of them ask, "What are they spraying in the sky?" Debunkers on websites like ATS then single out the ones who make errors about what is a contrail, why does it form, what makes a persistent contrail, etc., and supposedly the concern about "What are they spraying in the sky" becomes completely unwarranted.

Wrong again, by mistake or is it more dishonesty? There have been many discussions on here where questions are answered without anything like what you describe. Once again, chemtrail conspiracy theorists are the ones who insist they saw chemtrails, despite any and all information provided on other possibilities.

The quick shift from evidence such as the history of weather modification and its associated experimentation, the history of open air testing done in the US in civilian populations, the desire for the US military to own the sky and control weather for "DOD purposes," the outlined plans of the Spice experiment revealed by John Dykema in the UK, the talk of people like David Keith and his associate about releasing sulphur into the stratosphere as an aerosol as the first of experiments to study the effects --all of this disappears in the good name of geoengineering as if it's nothing but a pure science, and that's exactly what proponents of geoengineering like Bill Gates want. You guys know to manufacture consent through social reality.

Geoengineering is not chemtrails. Your complaints about everything being lumped together, whilst you yourself do exactly that with every post, makes no sense. Your tactic over every thread you enter appears, in my opinion, to be to try and hound skepticism, debate and critical thinking off the forum, by attacking and undermining any members that disagree with what you are telling people to think, so that any spurious claim can be made and accepted. Unlucky.

originally posted by: Petros312
People are branded with the label "chemtrail conspiracy theorists" first after the question many of them ask, "What are they spraying in the sky?"

In fact, I'd like you to post a link to a time where this very thing happened, just as you described it, so that you can show everyone here that it's a genuine assertion and not simply fatuous grandstanding. Then I will be seen to be wrong.

a reply to: Petros312

The average chemtrail believer has no interest in discussion, debate, or information, they only want CONFIRMATION of their theory. Don't believe me? go to any chemtrail site and post something polite but against chemtrails. It won't see the light of day. Is that dishonest?

I cannot stress this enough. If someone makes you angry, walk away. If you want to debate them, do it LIKE A MAN. If you feel they hurt your feelings, HIT THE ALERT BUTTON.

originally posted by: network dude
they only want CONFIRMATION of their theory.

We would all like to be proven correct. Its an ego thing.
But its how we handle being wrong that separates the men from the boys.