The Best of the Best....Air superiority Fighters

Wow, interesting! Thanks Waynos. I really can't over-emphasise how much of a dog the 65 was to work with. We had a gradual changeover of airframes with the new radar, and it was always a fight to get a 73. Especially in air to ground, the picture was generated infinitely quicker, and resolution was much better as well.

Thanks to you too, I always like to see the opinions of guys with real hands on experience. Iwasn't aware the APG-65 was regarded so lowly.

I guess it is one of those things. I suppose when the 65 came out, everyone went "Wow, check it out, how much does this crap over the Cyrano II!". Once you get a taste of new tech, going back is impossible. Same I'd imagine is true once you have an AESA.

Yeah they probably said the same thing when they switched to the 79, the next one down the line is always better in one area or another, sometimes it's better in all areas. Like being able to perform both A2A and A2G roles at the same time.


[edit on 25-9-2006 by WestPoint23]

1)MiG-29 (with Vectored Thrustering and upgraded avionics)

2)F-15 Eagle

3)F/A-18 Super Hornet

4)JA 37 Viggen

5)F-20 Tigershark

Nice to see a vote for the Viggen, its often overlooked (and of course also by me).

Seeing it on the list reminds me how there was a time when the Viggen, in the A2A version introduced in the early 80's with BAe Skyflash and AIM-9L missiles, was second ONLY to the F-15 in the world fighter hierarchy, mighty impressive stuff.

During the war, the Strike Eagles were tracked by Iraqi MiG-23s and MiG-29s and there were two notable opportunities for the F-15E to claim its first air-to-air kill. On the opening night one F-15E tracked a MiG-29 and attempted to engage it but had difficulties in acquiring the MiG-29's thermal signature in order to target an AIM-9 Sidewinder. The missile was eventually fired but failed to hit its target. Several other F-15Es simultaneously tried to engage the lone MiG-29 but errors and bad luck prevented them from getting the kill. One F-15E was actually flying past the Iraqi jet and manoeuvred in for the kill but the pilot hesitated to take the shot both because he was unsure where his wingmen were and because he didn’t get a good tone with the Sidewinder missile. Soon after, a missile of unknown origin was launched in the area and shortly after that the MiG hit the ground as the Iraqi pilot tried to engage an F-15E. Another MiG-29 was shot down by his own wingman and an F-15E was close by to yet another MiG-29, but the pilot elected not to engage as there were USN F-14s on the way to the area.

They were more scared of the Tomcat.

Eh, I was bored and thought I'd revive this old thread. Based on current production and service fighters my list has changed somewhat. Personally the top three are easy to pick, after that I'm not sure and tend to change my mind too often so I'll leave those two slots open... I put the Rhino in second place due to it's impressive suite of senors/avionics and weapons which at this point is only second to the F-22 (given a rational evaluation anyone can see that). Maybe later versions of the Typhoon will have more capability but as it stand now the Rhino has more "goodies".

1. F-22A Raptor Block 30
2. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Block II+
3. Typhoon F2


[edit on 2-6-2007 by WestPoint23]

I think you know I would try my best to argue the toss over places two and three, but I would have to have a deeper look to be sure of my facts and this is just a quick reply so I will say no more than you might want to Change your Typhoon from T1 to a F2

I'd be glad to just as long as the F2 variant is in production. Forgive me but I'm not as up to date on Typhoon production version as I am with homegrown fighters, so, is that indeed the case?

NVM, I see that several RAF squadrons use the F2.

[edit on 2-6-2007 by WestPoint23]

Westy, the main thing to remember is that just like in your own USAF, F means fighter and T means trainer.

The Best Air Superiority Fighters is an intresting mix. Without a doubt, the best of the Best is:

1. F-22 Raptor

Ok now lets see about the next four. This is where it's not so clear cut on the issue of best:

2. F/A-18E Super Horner
3. F-35 JSF
4. Mig 35
5. EFA

The last four I feel the order could be argued as they are all very capible fighter aircraft deserving of respect in the air. All are very deadly when put in the capible hands of a skilled fighter pilot.

Tim

Originally posted by Ghost01
2. F/A-18E Super Hornet
3. F-35 JSF
4. Mig 35
5. EFA

These aren't Air Superiority Fighters. Super Hornet is a carrier-based CAS platform and JSF is a multirole/strike aircraft. The duties of these two aircraft in question are actually pretty similar, but neither of them is Air Superiority in the sense that we have the F-22, MiG 35, and EF-2000 for.

Originally posted by Darkpr0
These aren't Air Superiority Fighters. Super Hornet is a carrier-based CAS platform and JSF is a multirole/strike aircraft.

The Super Hornet is a multi role fighter, much like the F-16, as such, it can, and indeed it is frequently used, in a wide array of roles. The Super Hornet and the F-35(A/C) will be used in the A2A role, as well as in the A2G role. While not true and dedicated "air superiority fighters" (is there even such a thing anymore?... Anyway, I digresses...) they both have plenty of capability when it comes to the air which is why they are on the list.


BTW, the Typhoon is also a multi role fighter, just like any other fighter in the world. Where the term "air superiority fighter" comes into play is when considering how a fighter will be primarily used.

[edit on 2-6-2007 by WestPoint23]

Hmmm, in terms of current air superiority capability I have to say, after having a look, that I would still put the Typhoon 2nd after the F-22. Its systems are 'supposed' to be more advanced than the Rhino's overall, and even if not there is still the remarkable PIRATE system that currently remains unique and even gives the Typhoon a 'chance' against the F-22 that is not available to other types. The upgrades in the pipeline are related to A2G ops and not relevant to this subject

That coupled with the Typhoons superior performance and agility put it ahead, IMO. I know the Rhino has AESA, but given the overall capabilities of the Typhoon airframe and systems, any advantage given by AESA is not enough to swing it (AESA does not make CAPTOR redundant or obsolete as many assume, PIRATE largely counteracts AESA all by itself - hence the uncertaintly in Europe whether AESA in the Typhoon is even worth pursuing, the main advantage for Typhoon is that it would result in a lighter installation, rather than any great performance gain)

The thing that many people forget is, when listing all the things that make the Raptor the best in the world, if you remove 'all-aspect stealth' from that list and replace it with 'PIRATE', you now have a list of what makes the Typhoon 2nd best. Rhino is missing quite a few of these features I believe.

I would even have to think about whether the Rafale was better than the Rhino or not, for the same reasons, not sure on that one but it may well be a yes.

I may be being unfair, but from outside looking in it seems to me that the Rhino is not highly regarded at all outside the USA, it has a rather 'make do' air about it. Is that wrong?

I think if the current F-35 were to go into a fight it would be mastered by a Tornado very easily, so it cannot be listed here, yet.



[edit on 3-6-2007 by waynos]

Originally posted by Waynos
Its systems are 'supposed' to be more advanced than the Rhino's overall...

Why? The Rhino is just as "new" as the Typhoon and it it being continuously upgraded.

Originally posted by Waynos
...and even if not there is still the remarkable PIRATE system that currently remains unique and even gives the Typhoon a 'chance' against the F-22 that is not available to other types.

I do not share your optimistic view of the PIRATE system, or all IRST type systems for that matter. For one they are not as reliable or as capable as radar is (range, all weather able, long range resolution, tracking capability, targeting etc...) . Any IRST systems is vulnerable to atmospheric conditions, some of which can make it virtually useless (and or severely limit the range). Radar guided IRST is interesting but again being able to only track one target at a time is no great feat. As such having an IRST system on steroids is not enough to put the Typhoon ahead. Especially since the combat effectiveness of such a system is not certain, consider how many real world kills have been done via IRST vs. Radar. And I also think there are very FEW circumstances in which the PIRATE could give the Typhoon a chance against the F-22.

Originally posted by Waynos
That coupled with the Typhoons superior performance and agility put it ahead, IMO.

It has occurred to me that of all new Western fighters (F-22, F-35, Typhoon) the Typhoon for some reason gets a pass on maneuverability when it really has not demonstrated any great agility (at least publicly that is). I'm not saying that it's not reasonably maneuverable but it seems to me that it was always trumpeted as highly agile (and that view was easily accepted), there was even a time when it was thought the Typhoon was more maneuverable than the F-22. And people are already doubting the maneuverability of the F-35... Now back to the Super Hornet, the Hornet airframe is also very maneuverable, probably one of the more maneuverable fighters in the US inventory. Still though, with both fighters having similar helmet mounted sight systems and similar HOBS missiles this category becomes kind of moot.

Originally posted by Waynos
I know the Rhino has AESA, but given the overall capabilities of the Typhoon airframe and systems, any advantage given by AESA is not enough to swing it...

Both the Typhoon and the Rhino have added on LO features, as such AESA is even more crucial in this case. The AN/APG-79 likely has superior range, resolution, tracking/detecting capability, faster scan/processing rates, it can perform in several modes at the same time, it has better LPI features, it has significant electronic warfare capability and it can be used as a data bus relay...

Originally posted by Waynos
PIRATE largely counteracts AESA all by itself...

Sorry Waynos but I don't think it does, IRST cannot compare to what AESA radar offers.

Originally posted by Waynos
Rhino is missing quite a few of these features I believe.

Basically the only thing the Typhoon has over the Rhino is speed and altitude performances and likely close in SA due to DASS. Although the Rhino does have similar features with (IEWS, IDECM etc..). As far as IRST goes, depending on the version the Super Hornet also has ATFLIR or the Lightening Targeting Pod. Also, the Super Hornet carries the AIM-120C-7 (and D as of next year) while the Typhoon currently has the C-5 version.

Originally posted by Waynos
I may be being unfair, but from outside looking in it seems to me that the Rhino is not highly regarded at all outside the USA, it has a rather 'make do' air about it. Is that wrong?

True but unfortunate, the Rhino is a poster child for bad public relations. For one it replaced the beloved Tomcat and was automatically rejected by fans and bitter Tomcat drivers alike (it's not as "cool" looking). Legitimate limitations in the C/D version combined with no similar movies in the works makes the Hornet series one of the most underrated aircraft around. Despite the fact that the Super Hornet is essentially a new aircraft and has one of the best weapons/avionics/weapons packages in the world as well as improved fight characteristics and profile. Which is why I stated in my original post "if evaluated rationally"...

Originally posted by Waynos
I think if the current F-35 were to go into a fight it would be mastered by a Tornado very easily, so it cannot be listed here, yet.

You mean the one and only pre production F-35A (AA-1)?

[edit on 3-6-2007 by WestPoint23]

( long range resolution, tracking capability, targeting etc...)

But these, plus multiple targetting and some other classified capabilities that are as yet only hinted at are also the very things that make PIRATE unique, it is seamlessly meshed with CAPTORS processing systems which means it acts like an 'IR radar' in that it can doe all these things. Yes weather can be problem, which is why the radar scanner is still essential. But weather is also a problem for stealth and it doesn't stop that being worth the effort.

reason gets a pass on maneuverability when it really has not demonstrated any great agility (at least publicly that is)

That is a fair comment Westy, though I see no reason at all to suppose the Rhino is more manouverable, the only thing that stops the F-22 being out and away as the most agile of the three here is its size and weight, the F-22 is unbelievably agile *for its size* but I still think the Typhoon might 'do' it in a close fight.

with both fighters (rhino and typhoon) having similar helmet mounted sight systems and similar HOBS missiles this category becomes kind of moot.

Ah yes, maybe we should arguing over who's pilots have the most swivelly heads?

The AN/APG-79 likely has superior range, resolution,.............

and here we have the problem with this argument, the word 'likely' must crop up far too often and, as the CAPTOR is also classified I can only throw 'likelies' back at you in a circular argument.

Sorry Waynos but I don't think it does, IRST cannot compare to what AESA radar offers.

But again Westy, PIRATE is more than a mere IRST. I think you perhaps dismiss it too easily, a fighter sized target has been successfully tracked on a CAPTOR slaved PIRATE system at a distance of 160km, way beyond your average IRST.

Basically the only thing the Typhoon has over the Rhino is speed and altitude performances and likely close in SA due to DASS.

not the only things, but its a start. I know you are not convinced over agility but at least the Typhoons one clear disadvantage, lack of a gun, is now being rectified.

Super Hornet also has ATFLIR or the Lightening Targeting Pod. Also, the Super Hornet carries the AIM-120C-7 (and D as of next year) while the Typhoon currently has the C-5 version.

I'm not too familiar with ATFLIR, is it the same sort of system as PIRATE or is it just an IRST? The missiles equation is our own fault for relying on you guys . Is the the C-7 really so superior to the C-5 or was it altered for other reasons? ( not a sarky question, I really don't know) Once Meteor appears however, we have the best missile again

You mean the one and only pre production F-35A (AA-1)?

Yes I did, seeing as we were discussing current capabilities

Originally posted by Darkpr0

Originally posted by Ghost01
2. F/A-18E Super Hornet
3. F-35 JSF

These aren't Air Superiority Fighters. Super Hornet is a carrier-based CAS platform and JSF is a multirole/strike aircraft. The duties of these two aircraft in question are actually pretty similar, but neither of them is Air Superiority in the sense that we have the F-22, MiG 35, and EF-2000 for.

Point taken! I didn't think that through before posting. Both aircraft are primarly A2G strrike platforms with a secondary A2A mission

Tim

Originally posted by Ghost01
Point taken! I didn't think that through before posting. Both aircraft are primarly A2G strrike platforms with a secondary A2A mission

Eh, s'all good. The idea of Air Superiority is kind of ambiguous these days. Technically, if you're shooting down enemy aircraft you are gaining air superiority, eh?

Did anyone know that you could lock on to a target and fire from another aircraft? So an f15c can lock a mig29 dogfighting with another f15c and that f15c could fire an aim9x and hit the target behind it.