Naomi Wolf - The End of America revisited (video, 2014)

In the wake of the rendition center in Chicago news/info. being discussed (here: ATS: Secret Rendition Sites...) I figured it would be apropos to provide this video.

The video of Naomi Wolf speaking is approximately 1 hour and 15min long, she spends the remaining time fielding questions from the audience. This video is approximately a year old now, uploaded in 2014. I've searched ATS and didn't come up with anything.


This is arguably a follow-up to her 2008 video, The End of America, which discusses her book, research, and 10 steps that it takes to close an open society (ATS: "The End of America" (Naomi Wolf) Video). In this new video she is speaking to the Free State Project's Liberty Forum in New Hampshire - a bunch of Libertarians!

She discusses some of the same things from her 2008 documentary, but adds to it based on current events. She still maintains that we are on the wrong track, big shock. The one thing that she added to this I will quote here for everyone to ponder given the rendition center info.:

In the video Naomi asks,

"Name a society that established a gulag or detention area outside the rule of law where torture can take place, or the equivalent of torture, that wasn't eventually used against that society's own citizens?"

Now some of ya get your panties in a twist, I'm not saying that the Chicago rendition center is a gulag or outside the rule of law. I merely found her question very poignant and historically speaking there is no society that exists that has or has had a gulag/detention area where torture happens (e.g., Gitmo) that didn't eventually use it against it's own citizens.

So, while some people beat the "that will never happen in America" drums, you might want to switch your musical choice to "it's only a matter of time for America."

At any rate, I hope many of you have the time to watch this updated video. If nothing more it's interesting watching a liberal, feminist agree with a group of libertarians about what's happening in America.

originally posted by: WCmutant
In the video Naomi asks,

"Name a society that established a gulag or detention area outside the rule of law where torture can take place, or the equivalent of torture, that wasn't eventually used against that society's own citizens?"

Now some of ya get your panties in a twist, I'm not saying that the Chicago rendition center is a gulag or outside the rule of law. I merely found her question very poignant and historically speaking there is no society that exists that has or has had a gulag/detention area where torture happens (e.g., Gitmo) that didn't eventually use it against it's own citizens.

So, while some people beat the "that will never happen in America" drums, you might want to switch your musical choice to "it's only a matter of time for America."

It's a question of false equivalence as near to a non-statement as one could possibly envision. It's the John Edwards of historical queries.

The implication Naomi puts forth is that if you can't name a society like this then America is doomed or somehow descending somewhere. This simply doesn't follow. Torture has fallen in and out of vogue in various societies often multiple times but, in general, torture doesn't flow down the slope but rather up it.

The very fact we're having this discussion is a demonstration of the flaw in the premise of the question.

Note, I am not saying that a society has never descended, what I am saying is you can name more societies ascending the slope than descending.

a reply to: WCmutant

Everything the USG is willing to do abroad, can and will be brought home.

Torture, illegal surveillance, sniping savages, kidnapping, covert assassination, droning. You name it, it will eventually come home.

I'm willing to listen to opposing viewpoints with any assertion whatsoever about what could stop them.

a reply to: Pinke

I think the slope is very slippery. And America has already gone around the circus tent with this one:

Rather than recreate the wheel on this I searched for "a timeline for torture in America" because it's rather important to understand that you (Pinke, and maybe others) seem to think what we are doing is only currently "in vogue." Perhaps you are hopeful that the "War on Terror" will go away like the "War on Drugs" or the "War on Poverty," and then suddenly torture won't be in vogue anymore. Your stance is very perplexing to say the least.

A timeline of CIA torture since 9/11

What's actually happening is a constant redefining of torture to make it appear less and less important in the scheme of American lives. However, Naomi Wolf's question is VERY important because if there has not been a society that has had gulag/detention centers operating outside the rule of law that didn't eventually use the same practices on it's own citizens then yes, America is doomed.

It's not about "torture" specifically. We can argue all day what is torture and whether or not someone inside the USA has been caught using it. It's not about that. It's about setting up black sites where torture takes place that are outside US jurisdiction so that lawyers can't challenge and audit what is taking place.

That is why we are in trouble as a nation. Well that and a whole plethora of other crap that ATS has already been covering on and off.

originally posted by: InverseLookingGlass
a reply to: WCmutant

Everything the USG is willing to do abroad, can and will be brought home.

Torture, illegal surveillance, sniping savages, kidnapping, covert assassination, droning. You name it, it will eventually come home.

I'm willing to listen to opposing viewpoints with any assertion whatsoever about what could stop them.

Amen and maybe soon. Another Naomi (Klein) in disregard of her
mentor, gave us a small perverse truth from a Belgrade echo:
"When ideologies don't roll in a country anymore, tanks will."
Beware a noticeable spike in the mainstream public's disillu-
sionment: and hit the shot clock, it won't be long after that.

originally posted by: WCmutant
a reply to: Pinke
Rather than recreate the wheel on this I searched for "a timeline for torture in America" because it's rather important to understand that you (Pinke, and maybe others) seem to think what we are doing is only currently "in vogue."

I had a look at the timeline and it hasn't yet changed my mind.

Waterboarding, sound torture, sleep dep, food dep ... was all part of special forces training several decades before that time line begins. Is it possible that some Americans (no idea if you're born there frankly) have an elevated sense of what their society was pre-interwebs?

A lot of the practices we're currently discussing began or were already in use under the Clinton administration (and waaaaaaay further back!). It just seems to me that the full historical context is missing from many of Wolf's arguments, and often times the speaker is pandering. The person is stating that America is going to become like Nazi Germany. That's really really unlikely.

What's actually happening is a constant redefining of torture to make it appear less and less important in the scheme of American lives.

Nations always redefine their own violence to make it seem less important. Don't disagree.

However, Naomi Wolf's question is VERY important because if there has not been a society that has had gulag/detention centers operating outside the rule of law that didn't eventually use the same practices on it's own citizens then yes, America is doomed.

I doubt I can convince you, because it's an amazing statement in that its hard to discuss just the way its framed. It's perfect since it takes a large word count to dispute but it's easy to utter in front of an audience.

My short second attempt (and sorry I'm not the bestest with words) is that 700 years ago some places were quartering people using horses and cattle and worse. There isn't a nation on the planet that hasn't somehow been connected to or dragged through a history of evil torture at some point. Therefore its likes saying perhaps ... name a society that hasn't wrongfully killed or name a major religion that hasn't been misused.

Yes, absolutely, America has human rights issues, but I'm not convinced America is going to become Nazi Germany within my life time (or yours if you live longer than me!). People like Wolf are important in that they raise questions, but it goes too far for me.

We can argue all day what is torture and whether or not someone inside the USA has been caught using it.

It's torture. U.S has been caught doing things like that for decades. It's precisely why I don't believe America is going to return to having the 'House of UnAmerican Affairs' or something like that any time soon.

If you have the time, check out Kade Crockford. I much prefer Kade's writing and speaking to Wolf's on this issue! Kade tackles the same topics without packaging it in as many grand narratives.

Libertarians are just as much a fraud as the repubs and dems. Maybe a little less so. But their views on open borders are disgusting.