Flower Power: Christian Florist Rejects Attorney General’s Offer

... and the next customer in line after that, I'm going to ask them what sort of clothes they plan on washing with this Tide laundry detergent they're wanting to purchase from my allah-loving store.

So many infidels... so little time.

a reply to: undo

could you imagine if they started basing it on whether or not you were the right political party or if you voted correctly in the last election?

Yes, I can imagine...they have already tried it:

a reply to: LeatherNLace

Actually, "political affiliation" is not a protected group like gender, race, ethnicity, disability and sexual orientation. I don't know what Arizona discrimination law is, but this shooting range may very well be within the law to post this sign. After all, a person's vote is confidential, so the shooting range cannot possibly enforce this statement. They're just showing their asses, which many in Arizona are wont to do. (I lived there for 15 years.)

But all of this shows how ridiculous the florist's refusal is.

Religious folks will never understand that if all those premodern versus were followed we’d still have slavery, witches would be burnt at the stake, children and adulterers would be stoned to death.

Even God understands change since the very Bible accepted slavery something that modern people would never accept.

Do they think God will punish us for evolving out of slavery and now outlawing something that he/she use to accept as permissible?


On that account it’s understandable; the institution of slavery in premodern times may have been necessary but humans have evolved out of it and is evolving out of sexual discrimination that religious people should accept.

But it will be difficult because clerics love their dogma more than they love people!

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: retiredTxn

The state AG chose to take on this battle.

Would you say the same if he decided to pursue people breaking other state laws? What is he supposed to do? Just sit back and let people break all the state laws they feel like breaking?

I'm not saying that. In no way should he allow all the laws to be broken, however, as in any other case, he could use a bit of common sense and prosecutorial discretion.

originally posted by: retiredTxn
Ultimately, this may cost the woman her business, her home, and everything she has worked hard for her whole life.

Her choice.

So, in your opinion, would it be safe to say a business that has been family run for over 47 years, should be wiped out because she made a decision you don't agree with?

All this to prove what point?

That some Christians don't approve of gay marriage. We already know that. No need for her to prove that point.

That SHE doesn't approve or condone gay marriage, based on her beliefs.

This lady did stand up for what she believes

She is free to stand up for her beliefs. But she cannot use her business to break the law.

I don't think she intended to break the law. She and her customer came to an amicable agreement, she provided several references to other florists, and it was done. As you said, she broke the law, intended or not. Just one question. Have you ever felt that a law is not just? Any laws you don't agree with? Maybe this lady believes this law prohibits her from exercising her rights as a citizen of the State of Washington, and is taking a stand in order to change parts of this law?

I'm not in total disagreement with you, however I feel all Americans are being legislated and regulated to death. If a baker refuses to bake a cake for me, I take them to court and make them bake me a cake, would you eat that cake with me? I'm not about to eat that cake.

There seems to be a huge lack of reading comprehension among the posters of this thread.

The woman has not and will not refuse business to the LBGT community. She said that she will continue to serve the customer, regardless of the outcome.

She said that she WILL NOT participate in setting up a wedding for a gay couple, which is what a florist does at a wedding, GEE GOLLY! She's not refusing to sell them flowers, she is refusing to sell them their "package" which includes flowers and setting up the floral arrangements at said wedding.

Being that, if she were to set up floral arrangements at the wedding, she would be taking a part of said wedding, this goes directly against her ( and any fundamental Christian / Catholic) beliefs that marriage is between men and women.

The fact that there are people on here cheering that she should have her livelihood taken away from her, for standing up for her beliefs, shows which side of the battle you're on. I'm not even religious and I applaud this woman for standing up for her beliefs.

Peace.

originally posted by: retiredTxn
I'm not saying that. In no way should he allow all the laws to be broken, however, as in any other case, he could use a bit of common sense and prosecutorial discretion.

He actually did. He offered to have her pay a fine and agree to stop discriminating. She denied.

originally posted by: retiredTxn
So, in your opinion, would it be safe to say a business that has been family run for over 47 years, should be wiped out because she made a decision you don't agree with?

It has nothing to do with what I agree with or disagree with. A business who refuses to obey the law should be punished, just as ANY PERSON who disobeys the law should be.

That SHE doesn't approve or condone gay marriage, based on her beliefs.

That's fine. She doesn't have to approve of it. She doesn't have to attend, approve, condone or be happy about gay marriage. Legally, however, she has to obey discrimination laws of the state. People say the customer could just go to another florist... this woman is free to move to Texas, for example, where she won't be required to sell wedding flowers to gay people.

I don't think she intended to break the law. She and her customer came to an amicable agreement, she provided several references to other florists, and it was done. As you said, she broke the law, intended or not. Just one question. Have you ever felt that a law is not just? Any laws you don't agree with? Maybe this lady believes this law prohibits her from exercising her rights as a citizen of the State of Washington, and is taking a stand in order to change parts of this law?

I don't think she intended to break the law. But once the law was made clear to her, she refused to follow it.

She and the customer did not come to an agreement. He is suing her.

Yes, I absolutely feel that some laws are unjust. And if I break them, I make damn sure not to get caught. If I decide to take a stand publicly, I will likely go through some trouble before it's all over. But if she wants to take this stand, I support her in doing so. It's our right. But she may lose.

I'm not in total disagreement with you, however I feel all Americans are being legislated and regulated to death. If a baker refuses to bake a cake for me, I take them to court and make them bake me a cake, would you eat that cake with me? I'm not about to eat that cake.

I can't disagree with you. We are being legislated to death. But this is one area that I agree with. I don't think businesses should be permitted to discriminate against groups of people. We already went through this with civil rights and it should be settled.

This legal action is not to force her to sell flowers for a gay wedding (or a baker to bake a specific cake - which I would not eat), it's to force her to comply with the law.

a reply to: QUANTUMGR4V17Y

There's no reading comprehension problems. She's not being asked to set up anything for the wedding or AT the wedding. She's being asked to sell flowers for a wedding, something she does all the time.

a reply to: QUANTUMGR4V17Y

i am not cheering her losing anything at all. i'm saying someone needs to talk to her about how biblical it is to dole out her services based on whether or not the customers are sinning.

originally posted by: QUANTUMGR4V17Y
She said that she WILL NOT participate in setting up a wedding for a gay couple, which is what a florist does at a wedding, GEE GOLLY! She's not refusing to sell them flowers, she is refusing to sell them their "package" which includes flowers and setting up the floral arrangements at said wedding.

Do you have a source for this "package" information that includes setting up arrangements AT the wedding?

Regardless, if she does it for straight weddings, refusing to do it for a gay wedding is discrimination and is illegal in the state.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: QUANTUMGR4V17Y
She said that she WILL NOT participate in setting up a wedding for a gay couple, which is what a florist does at a wedding, GEE GOLLY! She's not refusing to sell them flowers, she is refusing to sell them their "package" which includes flowers and setting up the floral arrangements at said wedding.

Do you have a source for this "package" information that includes setting up arrangements AT the wedding?

Regardless, if she does it for straight weddings, refusing to do it for a gay wedding is discrimination and is illegal in the state.

I want to see that source too.

This is the first time I've heard about any "package" that she has to go to the wedding and set up the arrangements.

She can outsource the delivery and setting up. Which is something she's probably done before.

But, if that's what she offers, then it must apply to everyone.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

He actually did. He offered to have her pay a fine and agree to stop discriminating. She denied.

I don't know what her reasoning was, but obviously she felt strongly enough to refuse his offer.

It has nothing to do with what I agree with or disagree with. A business who refuses to obey the law should be punished, just as ANY PERSON who disobeys the law should be.

I got stopped speeding one time, 90 in a 55 speed zone. The officer let me go after seeing my wife was having a miscarriage in the back seat, blood everywhere. He even escorted me to the hospital. I broke the law, but no ticket no arrest. I broke the law, but I won.

That's fine. She doesn't have to approve of it. She doesn't have to attend, approve, condone or be happy about gay marriage. Legally, however, she has to obey discrimination laws of the state. People say the customer could just go to another florist... this woman is free to move to Texas, for example, where she won't be required to sell wedding flowers to gay people.

Cheap shot. There are anti discrimination laws in Texas, however behind the times they are, but we are talking about Washington.

I don't think she intended to break the law. But once the law was made clear to her, she refused to follow it.
She and the customer did not come to an agreement. He is suing her.

During her interview on "The Kelly File", she made that statement. I see no reason to believe otherwise.
As for him suing her, he did not decide to do so until after the AG and ACLU got into the situation.Another source

Yes, I absolutely feel that some laws are unjust. And if I break them, I make damn sure not to get caught. If I decide to take a stand publicly, I will likely go through some trouble before it's all over. But if she wants to take this stand, I support her in doing so. It's our right. But she may lose.

So, you feel no regret breaking the law as long as you don't get caught? Most of us feel the same, but only when it involves very minor issues. Yes, she may lose her fight, but I also support her in her journey.

I can't disagree with you. We are being legislated to death. But this is one area that I agree with. I don't think businesses should be permitted to discriminate against groups of people. We already went through this with civil rights and it should be settled.
This legal action is not to force her to sell flowers for a gay wedding (or a baker to bake a specific cake - which I would not eat), it's to force her to comply with the law.

Is forcing her to comply with the law, not forcing her to sell flowers for a gay wedding, which is against her beliefs?

a reply to: Metallicus

Here's the thing: I know I've said this before, but I'll say it again. What she is doing isn't discriminating against the customer for being gay. He's been a long-time customer, and she has known he's gay for all that time and served him like everyone else. What she is drawing the line at is being asked to take part in a ceremony she finds to be sacrilegious and an affront to God, a mockery.

And she's not even saying that he can't do it or even that he'll be damned to hell for it. She's only asking that he not require her to take part by rendering her service to it.

I respect her and support her decision.

Put another way, would you ask a devout Catholic to take part or render service to a Black Mass and be at all surprised when they refuse?

In the case of the pediatrician, I can't side with her. She should put the child first and I'll bet she has clients who are the children of non-married parents and parents who are divorced and remarried. That one makes no sense to me, but if she really feels she can't render fair service, then it's probably best she pass them on.

a reply to: ketsuko

There is no law against what the pediatrician did.

There is a state law against what the florist did.

The florist broke a law. The pediatrician did not.

a reply to: ketsuko

what black mass people would want a 70+ year old christian woman, to provide them floral services? hehehehe

This is very clear to me.

"For over 135 years, the Supreme Court has held that laws may prohibit religiously motivated action, as opposed to belief," Ekstrom wrote. "The Courts have confirmed the power of the Legislative Branch to prohibit conduct it deems discriminatory, even where the motivation for that conduct is grounded in religious belief."

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
a reply to: QUANTUMGR4V17Y

There's no reading comprehension problems. She's not being asked to set up anything for the wedding or AT the wedding. She's being asked to sell flowers for a wedding, something she does all the time.

Except in her eyes this is not a wedding. And for her to make flowers for it is for her to participate in it as if she is part of it.

You are asking her to sin in order to satisfy this customer's desires.

originally posted by: retiredTxn
I got stopped speeding one time, 90 in a 55 speed zone. The officer let me go after seeing my wife was having a miscarriage in the back seat, blood everywhere. He even escorted me to the hospital. I broke the law, but no ticket no arrest. I broke the law, but I won.

That was an emergency. Many LEs will make exceptions for emergencies.

Cheap shot.

It wasn't a cheap shot. I have researched Texas laws regarding this and they don't include "sexual orientation" in their laws. I only used it because I know it.

During her interview on "The Kelly File", she made that statement. I see no reason to believe otherwise.
As for him suing her, he did not decide to do so until after the AG and ACLU got into the situation.

The ACLU is representing the couple.

Is forcing her to comply with the law, not forcing her to sell flowers for a gay wedding, which is against her beliefs?

Yes, it is. What I mean is, the lawsuit will not be forcing her to sell flowers for THIS wedding.

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: ketsuko

what black mass people would want a 70+ year old christian woman, to provide them floral services? hehehehe

I would counter with "What gay wedding would want a 70 year old Christian woman who does not believe in their wedding to provide them floral services?" Oh, wait ...

black mass people demand christian florist provide them with floral services at the black mass.
christian florist brings her entire bible study group along as helpers.