It amaze me

First I don't want to create a hate post. Maybe it's a bit of a rant. But again, not aimed at hurting anyone.

But this said, to me, every living thing is part of the (insert your god name here) plan. So whatever you believe, who ever you praise, you're my brother and sister. What makes me see the higher of yourself is the way you treat your fellows, the nature, the earth. The love you show in living and for livings. The one I admire the most are not necessery preaching but they are like a lighthouse, just the way they are. You just wan't to evolve like them.

But here what's amaze me.

On earth we have many many religions:

The World Factbook gives the population as 7,095,217,980 (July 2013 est.) and the distribution of religions as Christian 31.50% (of which Roman Catholic 16.85%, Protestant 6.15%, Orthodox 3.96%, Anglican 1.26%), Muslim 23.20% (of which Sunni 75-90%, Shia 10-20%, Ahmadi 1%), Hindu 13.8%, Buddhist 6.77%, Sikh 0.35%, Jewish 0.22%, Baha'i 0.11%, other religions 10.95%, non-religious 9.66%, atheists 2.01% (2010 est.).[

en.wikipedia.org...

Christians and Muslim (not sure about others) do believe that the others are misled and going to hell. Not just just wrong: will burn/suffer for eternity. So for Christians (and they are also divided in themselves in Catholics/Protestants and so forth) who represents a bit less than 1/3 of the world population, it's ok to say and think: all others, a few billions, are going to hell because they pray the wrong god. Same thing with muslims, just a bit higher figures.

Gee people, in 2015, with all the infos you can get everywhere, just with your common sence: how can your God create a hole bunch of souls/spirits just to torture most of it? For a Christian, how can you imagine your God condamning someone who was borned from Muslim parents, raised by them, not being in contact with other religions, but doing his best? Vice-versa with Muslim vs Christian. What kind of god would kill/torture most of his children, even if they haven't had the slightest chance to be otherwise? Do god play trap?

How can you believe that? Can't you see the political power, the wealth gathered by the heads of those religions? Can't you see the sectarism in it? With us = heaven/virgins/eternal bliss. Without = hell/suffering. How convenient to keep membership.

Just think about this: we use our religion to despise people from different faith in the name of a god of love... Weird.

I'm and was raised as a Roman Catholic. In our Churches, women can't preach, like if they are stained. Gee, you can cope with a God who flips your sex and, buzzz, you're a woman so you are less worthy. Really?

Can't we see, now in 2015, that it's all man made stuff, with some great ideas, but never to be taken litterally?

I truly appologise if I rock your faith but hey, isn't it time we begin to think a bit by ourselves?

Peace

Jeff

Ps: you can flame me, you'll stay my brothers and sisters anyway

originally posted by: LoveSolMoonDeath
What kind of god would kill/torture most of his children, even if they haven't had the slightest chance to be otherwise? Do god play trap?

God doesn't do those things, man is given free choice. In the Garden Of Eden when Eve ate of the Forbidden Fruit, because the Serpent tempted her, that's when evil began on the earth. Lucifer was a fallen angel, who wanted to be greater than God, and was cast out of Heaven. Because of Lucifer evil exists. We have free choice. There is a constant pull between good and evil. Eventually good will win. In the meantime Lucifer, or Satan, is the great deceiver roaming the planet along with his horde seeking to kill and destroy. Satan is the god of the earth. One day the Lord Jesus Christ will return and end the suffering for believers.

a reply to: AreUKiddingMe

Excuse me but men have not free will on very determinant. Just think about the place you were born. If it was say Afghanistant, which is 99.8 muslim, you surely be one of them.

Be a bit more graphical here. Here's a muslim family. Imagine they are from Afghanistan.



Can you honestly tell me that our loving god will send them to hell with a few other billions because they didn't know christian preaching?

Can you?

I can't.

From my point of view Jesus taught works instead of faith in an idol of himself. Paul taught Idolize Jesus as a charm/mantra and you are automatically saved.

Matthew 25:31-46 Parable of sheep and goats. Jesus clearly state that people who do not do works and say they are following him without works are cursed. So faith without works is dead and works without faith, is the people in the parable who do good without knowing they are doing what Jesus wanted.

a reply to: LittleByLittle

So correct me if I'm wrong, but good muslim will be in heaven with Jesus?

Didn't though it worked that way. I tough they were part ofthe lost ones for catholics.

Enlighten me, do christian 'invite' muslim to their heaven? Then I'm amazed of this 'ouverture'

Yes, it would be extremely cruel for God to send unwitting participants in deception to hell. If they were unwitting and didn't have a chance to know any other way, it was not their fault and God is punishing them for something they didn't intentionally do.

That's like someone accidentally dropping a gun which goes off and kills someone else, then the person who accidentally dropped it getting life in prison without the possibility of parole. But I guess since it's God, he is justified in his life sentencing. Even if his ruling is unfair, it is fair.

originally posted by: LoveSolMoonDeath
First I don't want to create a hate post. Maybe it's a bit of a rant. But again, not aimed at hurting anyone.

But this said, to me, every living thing is part of the (insert your god name here) plan. So whatever you believe, who ever you praise, you're my brother and sister. What makes me see the higher of yourself is the way you treat your fellows, the nature, the earth. The love you show in living and for livings. The one I admire the most are not necessery preaching but they are like a lighthouse, just the way they are. You just wan't to evolve like them.

But here what's amaze me.

All creations has been corrupted by an ancient virus.

Scientists have linked it to the origins of carnivorism and sexual reproduction. Did rape and murder come to mind??

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1. But I guess since it's God, he is justified in his life sentencing. Even if his ruling is unfair, it is fair.

How can it makes sence to you? God sending 2/3 of hi's creation to eternal suffering, creation he himself put to life? Knowing that for most of them they wouldn't be expose to his words?

Can you imagine that the hole 'lost souls' thing is just for those who doesn't comply with his teaching, without relation with the kind of religion they were the adept. Just think to the other billions... you can't convict them because they weren't expose to your faith.

What do you think?

a reply to: LoveSolMoonDeath

Just think about this: we use our religion to despise people from different faith in the name of a god of love... Weird.

I think we are trained to it. The church teaches us this, that there is only one 'true' God, our God and he is on our side.

Thats used to start wars. Look at the headlines today… Muslim Extremist, Islamic Jihadist, Radical Muslim, all very specifically attributing a "different" religion to the evils we make war against, the war on terror.

Just an excuse to garner support for conquest.

In the middle ages the King and the Church ran things together, is it really any different today than when the Crusades raged?

The Gods are the same, the Churches, the peoples, the territories to be conquered… all the same now as then.

a reply to: johndeere2020

There you lost me



Care to explain a bit?

“Let's say that the consensus is that our species, being the higher primates, Homo Sapiens, has been on the planet for at least 100,000 years, maybe more. Francis Collins says maybe 100,000. Richard Dawkins thinks maybe a quarter-of-a-million. I'll take 100,000. In order to be a Christian, you have to believe that for 98,000 years, our species suffered and died, most of its children dying in childbirth, most other people having a life expectancy of about 25 years, dying of their teeth. Famine, struggle, bitterness, war, suffering, misery, all of that for 98,000 years.

Heaven watches this with complete indifference. And then 2000 years ago, thinks 'That's enough of that. It's time to intervene,' and the best way to do this would be by condemning someone to a human sacrifice somewhere in the less literate parts of the Middle East. Don't lets appeal to the Chinese, for example, where people can read and study evidence and have a civilization. Let's go to the desert and have another revelation there. This is nonsense. It can't be believed by a thinking person.

Why am I glad this is the case? To get to the point of the wrongness of Christianity, because I think the teachings of Christianity are immoral. The central one is the most immoral of all, and that is the one of vicarious redemption. You can throw your sins onto somebody else, vulgarly known as scapegoating. In fact, originating as scapegoating in the same area, the same desert. I can pay your debt if I love you. I can serve your term in prison if I love you very much. I can volunteer to do that. I can't take your sins away, because I can't abolish your responsibility, and I shouldn't offer to do so. Your responsibility has to stay with you. There's no vicarious redemption. There very probably, in fact, is no redemption at all. It's just a part of wish-thinking, and I don't think wish-thinking is good for people either.

It even manages to pollute the central question, the word I just employed, the most important word of all: the word love, by making love compulsory, by saying you MUST love. You must love your neighbour as yourself, something you can't actually do. You'll always fall short, so you can always be found guilty. By saying you must love someone who you also must fear. That's to say a supreme being, an eternal father, someone of whom you must be afraid, but you must love him, too. If you fail in this duty, you're again a wretched sinner. This is not mentally or morally or intellectually healthy.

And that brings me to the final objection - I'll condense it, Dr. Orlafsky - which is, this is a totalitarian system. If there was a God who could do these things and demand these things of us, and he was eternal and unchanging, we'd be living under a dictatorship from which there is no appeal, and one that can never change and one that knows our thoughts and can convict us of thought crime, and condemn us to eternal punishment for actions that we are condemned in advance to be taking. All this in the round, and I could say more, it's an excellent thing that we have absolutely no reason to believe any of it to be true.”

― Christopher Hitchens

a reply to: LoveSolMoonDeath

You misunderstood me. I agree with you, that was an example of an argument someone of faith would make. They believe since it is God then it is justified. I am not someone of faith.

a reply to: intrptr

You are right.

My very dream would be people seeing that all religion should be means to be a better soul, period. I don't care if you are:

1 Abrahamic religions
1.1 Bábism
1.2 Bahá'í Faith
1.3 Christianity 1.3.1 Other groups related to Christianity
1.4 Gnosticism
1.5 Islam 1.5.1 Religions related to Islam 1.5.1.1 Sufi and Shia Sects
1.6 Druze
1.7 Judaism and related religions
1.8 Black Hebrew Israelites
1.9 Rastafari movement
1.10 Mandaeans and Sabians
1.11 Shabakism

2 Indian religions
2.1 Ayyavazhi
2.2 Bhakti movement
2.3 Buddhism
2.4 Din-e Ilahi
2.5 Hinduism
2.6 Jainism
2.7 Meivazhi
2.8 Sikhism

3 Iranian religions
3.1 Zoroastrianism
3.2 Gnostic religions
3.3 Bábí movement
3.4 Yazdânism

4 East Asian religions
4.1 Confucianism
4.2 Shinto 4.2.1 Shinto-inspired religions
4.3 Taoism 4.3.1 Contemporary Taoism-inspired religions
4.4 Other 4.4.1 Chinese
4.4.2 Korean
4.4.3 Vietnamese

5 African diasporic religions
6 Indigenous traditional religions
6.1 African
6.2 American
6.3 Eurasian
6.4 Oceania/Pacific
6.4.1 Cargo cults

7 Historical polytheism
7.1 Ancient Near Eastern
7.2 Indo-European
7.2.1 Hellenistic
7.3 Uralic

8 Mysticism and occult
8.1 Esotericism and mysticism
8.1.1 Western mystery tradition
8.1.1.1 Thelema
8.1.2 Christian mysticism and esotericism
8.2 Occult and magic

9 Modern Paganism
9.1 Syncretic
9.2 Ethnic

10 New religious movements
10.1 New Thought
10.2 Shinshukyo

11 Left-hand path religions
12 Post-theistic and naturalistic religions

en.wikipedia.org...


Take a second and just look at the list above...each and every one of these are conviced to be THE REAL DEAL. The true religion. How come we are so arrogant to think that OURS is the right one.

Shouldn't we just go back to basic: Just love your brothers and treat them as yourself?

Just thinking outloud

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I beg your pardon, English is not my native language

a reply to: LoveSolMoonDeath

Jeff,

I truly appologise if I rock your faith but hey, isn't it time we begin to think a bit by ourselves?

Do you really think you put forth some grand argument that would rock a christians faith?

Christians and Muslim (not sure about others) do believe that the others are misled and going to hell. Not just just wrong: will burn/suffer for eternity. So for Christians (and they are also divided in themselves in Catholics/Protestants and so forth) who represents a bit less than 1/3 of the world population, it's ok to say and think: all others, a few billions, are going to hell because they pray the wrong god. Same thing with muslims, just a bit higher figures.

If it is the truth that people who don't believe on the name of Jesus will go to hell, why wouldn't it be ok for me to speak the truth?

Gee people, in 2015, with all the infos you can get everywhere, just with your common sence: how can your God create a hole bunch of souls/spirits just to torture most of it? For a Christian, how can you imagine your God condamning someone who was borned from Muslim parents, raised by them, not being in contact with other religions, but doing his best? Vice-versa with Muslim vs Christian. What kind of god would kill/torture most of his children, even if they haven't had the slightest chance to be otherwise? Do god play trap?

How does common sense bring us to the metaphysical and ethical conclusion that it is wrong for God to send someone to hell. You seem to have a misunderstanding of what Christians believe hell is. Hell is eternal separation from God. Hell is bad not because God makes it bad because God is the very standard of Good. It is his essence and that essence is removed from those people because they chose to live without God.

What kind of god would kill/torture most of his children, even if they haven't had the slightest chance to be otherwise?

The Bible tells us if a person has truly never heard the Word that they will be judged by the law written on their hearts. So as Christian I believe if a person has never heard of the Gospel of Salvation God will judge them fairly based on what they do believe because that is his nature. The reason we as Christians try and spread the gospel is so that people may be judged by the law of grace through Jesus Christ rather than either the law on their heart or the law. Your analogy however is a bad one because Muslims stem from an Abrahamic background and they have definitely heard of Christ.

How can you believe that? Can't you see the political power, the wealth gathered by the heads of those religions? Can't you see the sectarism in it? With us = heaven/virgins/eternal bliss. Without = hell/suffering. How convenient to keep membership.

I do see some people take advantage of the orgainzed aspect of religion, but you shouldn't let a person today warp your opinion of the words in scripture. Nor should you let the fact that people don't settle their differences humanely effect your opinion of Scripture. You are basing the truthfulness of the Scriptures off the actions of people rather than seeing what they say for yourself. The Bible dosent teach that if you go to church and do everything right that you'll get to heaven. The Bible teaches that you can't do everything right, and because of that you need a savior to make you righteous before God,or because of his perfectly just nature he will have to judge you according to the law. The bible teaches that salvation is of the works of Christ and not of ourselves. So going to church doesn't get you into heaven. Waiting til marriage for sex doesn't get you into heaven. Only the acceptance of the work done on the cross by Jesus can a person get into heaven.

Just think about this: we use our religion to despise people from different faith in the name of a god of love... Weird.

Again an odd idea about the faith. I personally don't hate anyone from a different faith. I think the believe something thats untrue, and so I may try and show them the truth out of love but just because I disagree with them and try and get them to see truth doesn't mean I hate them.....

I'm and was raised as a Roman Catholic. In our Churches, women can't preach, like if they are stained. Gee, you can cope with a God who flips your sex and, buzzz, you're a woman so you are less worthy. Really?

It might make more sense if you were aware that of the typification of the genders in the bible. Male=God Female=Church. Women are meant to reflect in a relationship with their husbands the role of the Church to God. So many churches believe that a women should not be the head of the Church because it wouldn't reflect the typification God intended. It has nothing to do with the value of a women compared to a man. However it is clear that women should be allowed to teach as Paul had no issue with Priscilla teaching people about the Gospel.

I think that its clear you've had some bad experiences with the Faith, but I don't think you should let that turn you off of what very well may be the one and only truth behind this reality.

a reply to: LoveSolMoonDeath

Take a second and just look at the list above...each and every one of these are conviced to be THE REAL DEAL. The true religion. How come we are so arrogant to think that OURS is the right one.

The 'only one true God' routine.

They start that with the old testament in sunday school. Anyone that attends church gets the lessons of Moses and his staff that eats up the other serpents, the "Exodus" from Egypt and the battle between Moses and the Pharaoh to "let my people go".

David and Goliath, the Israelites take Canaan (kill everyone, take everything, burn whats left)… getting the pic? We are sold this bill of goods at an early age in "church", we were inducted into exceptionalism while our parents sat in pews and sang gospels.

Just musing from my experience growing up in white, middle class America.

nonsense.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Do you really think you put forth some grand argument that would rock a christians faith?

Not at all, I want to understand how religions can be so exclusive/thinking they own the thruth and still be gathering people I know.

If it is the truth that people who don't believe on the name of Jesus will go to hell, why wouldn't it be ok for me to speak the truth?

If you think it will save them it's all in your credit. I just don't think that any loving god will actually reject most of the souls just because during their life time, a blink in the eternity, they didn't adhere with his words or see Jesus as the only way to God. If muslims think Jesus is just a prophet, why would they deserve to 'suffer' from the lack of connection with the source or God for ETERNITY? What kind of 'loving' god is that. Strange case of split personnality.

How does common sense bring us to the metaphysical and ethical conclusion that it is wrong for God to send someone to hell.

Because he created them, he's the source of them. He then must know of them, love them. Why a loving god should send his children to hell? Why not just helping them and giving some other lifes to be a better soul? And why muslim (or any other religion) should be on the wrong path. They have their own scriptures, their own prophet, their own law. Should they be punished because they believe in their deities? The story about Jesus is 2000 years old. We have problems playing the telephone game with a few people in a room on a 2 minutes span, what to think about scriptures copied and re-copied/translated/adapted/revised? I do believe he was a higher soul, a prophet. But what about the prophet of others. Should we refuse them the presence of god because they were mixed up in their faith/choose another god? What makes you think most (2/3) of humanity is wrong and you luckily got the right one?

Again an odd idea about the faith. I personally don't hate anyone from a different faith.

Then again good for you. But just to think that 2/3 of humanity is wrong and probably going to hell...isn't it a form of hate?

However it is clear that women should be allowed to teach as Paul had no issue with Priscilla teaching people about the Gospel.

There we're on the same track.

God speed


And be assured that I'm in contact with my god and he IS taking you to heaven anytime, without any judgment other than yours on yourself.

a reply to: LittleByLittle

From my point of view Jesus taught works instead of faith in an idol of himself. Paul taught Idolize Jesus as a charm/mantra and you are automatically saved.

You do realize Paul's conversion is dated at three-six years after the cross? He knew people who knew Jesus. To think he didn't know what Jesus taught is silly, and has no historical basis.

Matthew 25:31-46 Parable of sheep and goats. Jesus clearly state that people who do not do works and say they are following him without works are cursed. So faith without works is dead and works without faith, is the people in the parable who do good without knowing they are doing what Jesus wanted.

This is a prime example of when people interpret the Bible passage by passage rather than as a whole. I am not picking friend, but to interpret this you should look at the rest of Scripture. Verse 46 says " And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Isaiah 64:6
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

All of our righteousnesses are as flithy rags to God.

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Just to show you Isaiah using the sheep reference here then continue down a few verses to

Isaiah 53:11-12
Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,And He will divide the booty with the strong;Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors

So only through this servant spoken of in isaiah 53 will those rags be accounted righteous to a person. Jesus was this servant, and Paul backs all of this up but I am leaving those out to show you its not a Pauline doctrine.

1 peter 2:4
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

Jeremiah 23:6
In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’

Now for words straight from Jesus:

Matthew 11
27 All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Mark 8
34 And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me......38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

John 6
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.


John 7
37Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"

John 14
6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

I mean I can go on for quite awhile but for timesake I will leave you with these.

a reply to: LoveSolMoonDeath

Not at all, I want to understand how religions can be so exclusive/thinking they own the thruth and still be gathering people I know.

Its not that they are exclusive friend. Its because you seem to have a misunderstanding on the nature of Truth. Truth is exclusive. That is what makes it stand out for everything that is false. If contradictions are made then either one side is true and the other is not, or neither are true. So the point is exclusivity comes from the nature of truth.

I just don't think that any loving god will actually reject most of the souls just because during their life time, a blink in the eternity, they didn't adhere with his words or see Jesus as the only way to God

Would a loving God force them into his presence for all eternity against their will?

If muslims think Jesus is just a prophet, why would they deserve to 'suffer' from the lack of connection with the source or God for ETERNITY?

We all deserve to be separated from God. Everyone deserves to go to hell, which is defined as eternal separation from God. God is perfectly just and so any evil must be punished because of that attribute of his nature. You don't seem to understand that Christians don't get into heaven because they deserve it. They get into heaven by the grace of God. It has absolutely nothing to do with what righteous acts the Christian has done in their life.

He then must know of them, love them. Why a loving god should send his children to hell?

He does know them, and love them. Well first we aren't children of God from birth. We are born sinners in rebellion against God. Why would a loving God force a person into his presence against his will?

Why not just helping them and giving some other lifes to be a better soul?

Again salvation is not by works. They can go through a million lives and never be good enough to get into heaven. Because all humans can't live up to the perfect standard of just held by God. Hence our need for a savior.

They have their own scriptures, their own prophet, their own law. Should they be punished because they believe in their deities?

No. They go to hell for the same reason I deserve to go to hell. They are sinners. They chose to trust those dieties and reject the God of the Bible. So if God loves them how is he to force them to go against their free will he blessed them with?

The story about Jesus is 2000 years old. We have problems playing the telephone game with a few people in a room on a 2 minutes span, what to think about scriptures copied and re-copied/translated/adapted/revised?

This is a common misconception about the Bible. The Bible was not passed around like the telephone game . It was written, and they copied that written version multiple times, then those copies were copied multipltimes. Ever copied sentences out of a textbook for a class? I don't think its that hard to copy from one piece of paper to the next when you have a copy right in front of you.....the english version we have today is translated directly from the hebrew and the greek manuscripts available.

I do believe he was a higher soul, a prophet. But what about the prophet of others. Should we refuse them the presence of god because they were mixed up in their faith/choose another god?

Should we refuse them their free will to decide whether they want to live with the God of the Bible or not?

What makes you think most (2/3) of humanity is wrong and you luckily got the right one?

I don't think I luckily got the right one. I have put a lot of time and effort into research and logical reasoning and this is what I found to be true with the reality I observe.

Then again good for you. But just to think that 2/3 of humanity is wrong and probably going to hell...isn't it a form of hate?

First telling someone they don't know the truth isn't hateful. Its called honest. If I sincerely believe(and I do) that your soul is lost it would be wrong of me to let you go on thinking you were okay.

I am so confused as to why you think that because I think people are going to hell I hate them. If I hated them I would hide the Bible and not try and share it with them at all......

And be assured that I'm in contact with my god and he IS taking you to heaven anytime, without any judgment other than yours on yourself.

Your God seems limited in the realm of justice. It also seems like you just enjoy the fact that you can just agree with whoever without hurting their feelings. Truth hurts sometimes bud.