Pope Francis: 'Very Grave Sin' When Employers Underpay Workers, Avoid Taxes

Pope Francis made the statement that not paying taxes is a very grave sin and so is underpaying employees. (This is his opinion and not ex cathreda pronouncement from the Church.) In Catholic-speak, a 'very grave sin' is one that you go to hell for.

Pope Francis: 'Grave Sin' When Employers Underpay Workers, Avoid Taxes

Employers who hire workers off the books to avoid paying taxes, Social Security, and a fair wage are committing a "very grave sin," Pope Francis says.

In a homily Friday at the Saint Martha residence in the Vatican where he lives, the Argentine pontiff harshly castigated bosses who attend church but treat their workers poorly, the Gazzetta del Sud reports.

"You cannot make donations to the Church on the back of the injustice that you commit with your employees," the Pope said, the online news site reports.

Do you agree? Do you think people will go to hell because they hired people 'off the books' so that they could avoid paying taxes to the government? The pope failed to state what a 'fair wage' is. In my opinion a fair wage would be the ol' - an honest days work and an honest days pay. But everyone has a different opinion on that. Some think every job should receive a 'livable wage' while others point to economics and say that entry level positions (like McDonalds burger flippers) aren't livable wage type jobs for good reason.

So ... Hell bound or not?

And should the pope be making statements about social justice issues and world economics or should he just be sticking to telling Catholics about real theological issues?? (and this isn't one of them).

Didn't I read in a book somewhere that Jesus destroyed a money exchanger market? And hasn't it been established that taxes are illegal and unjust? Seems that if taxes are both of these that he should be advocating not contributing to illegal activities or the enslavement of humans.

Who's this guy working for anyway?

Maybe he should pay some taxes...wait, he doesn't have to does he?

Peace

originally posted by: jude11
Who's this guy working for anyway?

Honestly, that's the question going around in Catholic circles. He says some 'on the money' stuff like 'don't judge' and 'help the poor' and 'Catholics don't have to breed like rabbits'. But then he comes out with things that really make people wonder. He has said that he wants a world wide tax on people to redistribute wealth to poor nations, and he wants a new bureaucracy to take care of it. That kind of talk is a bad idea and it makes me VERY nervous. That kind of money and that kind of power would naturally de-evolve into something very evil.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: jude11
Who's this guy working for anyway?

Honestly, that's the question going around in Catholic circles. He says some 'on the money' stuff like 'don't judge' and 'help the poor' and 'Catholics don't have to breed like rabbits'. But then he comes out with things that really make people wonder. He has said that he wants a world wide tax on people to redistribute wealth to poor nations, and he wants a new bureaucracy to take care of it. That kind of talk is a bad idea and it makes me VERY nervous. That kind of money and that kind of power would naturally de-evolve into something very evil.

That seat has always been about power and money so nothing has changed nor will it ever IMO.

Absolute power is nothing but corruption realized.

Peace

Pope Francis: 'Very Grave Sin' When Employers Underpay Workers, Avoid Taxes

The church pretends its not a business to "avoid taxes". Most people volunteer to "work" there.

You're right, he should stick to church 'business'. Then again, he has to say something about serfdom.

a reply to: FlyersFan

So all churches sin then... Seeing as though they don't pay property tax.... Food for thought.

Well these people who avoid/evade taxes, which most importantly help people with disabilities (physical & mental), & help to educate children, probably don't believe in Hell anyways...

Or they worship those who dwell there...

So his words will be unlikely to encourage a change in nature...




& until his own Church pays taxes...
He can be sure to follow those he is judging to the same place.

So it's evil to avoid taxes?

Hmmmm.... pot meet kettle.

a reply to: FlyersFan

And should the pope be making statements about social justice issues and world economics or should he just be sticking to telling Catholics about real theological issues?? (and this isn't one of them).

Yes, he should. Jesus was all ABOUT social justice.
He has the ear of the world, for better or worse, and since he is graced with that position it is his obligation to do so. The Bible and the Church exist so that people have guidance.

I happen to agree with his premise (although I don't believe in "grave sin"), but even if I didn't - as a leader of billions he is expected to, well, LEAD.

a reply to: FlyersFan

What about all the people who evade their taxes? Employers aren't the only ones who do it. Do basically, the entire country of Greece is going to hell per the Pope?

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

So Jesus was about theft? That's what taxes are - theft.

You need to learn the difference between theft and charity. Jesus was all about charity. He felt that you should give of yourself all you can. He did not advocate that people come take from you to give what was yours as they saw fit which is what taxation is. It doesn't matter if it is done by law. It is not done by God's law, but by man's meaning that it is every bit as corrupt and potentially punitive and sinful as anything else man does.

a reply to: ketsuko
Yep. Jesus said 'pay what is Caesar's to Caesar, and what is God's to God'. He didnt' care about taxes. He preached 'love God and neighbor'. He spent his time trying to get people not to stone each other to death, and to forgive. I don't remember seeing him set up any social justice charities or work with governments to redistribute wealth (tax people more).

IMHO the pope should stick to matters of theology for Catholics and not get into taxes and world wealth redistribution. If he wants to preach to Catholic business owners that they should pay an honest days pay for an honest days work, I can see that because that goes to a theological issue of honesty and treating others correctly.

Sometimes I really dig what he says. (like when he said 'who am I to judge' when it comes to homosexuals. Love them and leave the judgements of their souls to God)

Other times, he makes me really nervous. (like when he starts talking about taxes and massive wealth redistribution)

a reply to: ketsuko

So Jesus was about theft? That's what taxes are - theft.

You need to learn the difference between theft and charity. Jesus was all about charity.

Yawn.
Yes, ketsuko, I realize you still see me as a dimwit. Taxes have ALWAYS existed.

Don't tell me what I 'need to learn', please. Taxes are necessary for any community to function - period.

"Social justice" issues ARE "real theological" issues. It stems all the way back to the OT.(as usual)

There are 7 Themes of Catholic Social Teaching. Google them, they're beautiful. The US Conference of Catholic Bishops has a wonderful tract on this.

These remarks from Francis (assuming they're what he really said)...fall within one or more of the basic teachings of The Catholic Church. He's right on all points.


a reply to: FlyersFan

The mechanizations conservatives go to, to make the Bible fit their Conservative ideology is truly astonishing.

El Papa is a man with an agenda. Is it Gods agenda? idk God doesn't talk to me....and I don't trust authority figures; especially religious, political, social, cultural authority figures, that think they know Gods will....imo They want control of others and I just don't think they have my best interest in mind, even though they claim to.

The true Catholic focus and intent is best expressed by the Jesuits; not the Pope, even though the Pope is a Jesuit......uh oh!

one-evil.org...

If anyone put oneself in a place of power (on top of a power pyramid) over others and by egoistic wants (greed) cause suffering to others (that do not have the power to defend themselves) -> Then that action have caused a karma debt that have to be repaid.

Trickle up pyramids like capitalism do in the end, enslave the person at the top to future servitude for past egoistic actions. I do not agree with the Christian version of hell since I think it is a over simplification. The one I believe is the way it will be objectively judged, is both in a way better and worse for all souls than the Christian version of hell.

Namaste (I bow to the divine in you)

When I just read the quoted text from the article (and not the commentary) it puts it in a context that seems just fine with me (and I'm certainly not Catholic, lol).

"You cannot make donations to the Church on the back of the injustice that you commit with your employees," the Pope said, the online news site reports.

"Using God to cover injustice is a very grave sin," he said, adding: "If you go to Mass on Sunday and take communion, you should ask: What is the relationship with your employees? Do you pay them off the books? Do you pay them a fair salary? Do you pay the pension contributions?"

Sounds just fine, I wonder if the article paraphrased the words to make a better headline or story? (Not you, FF, I mean the author of the article).

To those that think taxation is stealing your money...then don't pay any taxes and take personal responsibility for what happens.

Having an ideology and not living up to it's premise is cowardice.

Living in a civilized society entails certain responsibilities; if you want to avoid those responsibilities, fine...just quit playing the victim and don't whine about it.

originally posted by: jude11
Didn't I read in a book somewhere that Jesus destroyed a money exchanger market?

Yup, because the moneylenders were in the temple, basically charging for access to prayer, with some of hte proceeds going to the priests

And hasn't it been established that taxes are illegal and unjust?

No.

Also, since you're recalling stories about jesus, and we're talking about hte pope, do you remember this?

13And they sent to him some of the Pharisees and of the Herodians; that they should catch him in his words. 14Who coming, say to him: Master, we know that thou art a true speaker, and carest not for any man; for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar; or shall we not give it? 15Who knowing their wiliness, saith to them: Why tempt you me? bring me a penny that I may see it. 16And they brought it him. And he saith to them: Whose is this image and inscription? They say to him, Caesar's. 17And Jesus answering, said to them: Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Seems that if taxes are both of these that he should be advocating not contributing to illegal activities or the enslavement of humans.

Funny thing, how those who evade taxes tend to be the most likely to be practicing slavery or similar exploitation. Wage theft, unpaid overtime, child labor, general abuse... all for that profit margin.

a reply to: ketsuko

Taxes are a user's fee for civilization. What, you think the society around you sprang up overnight, fueled solely by wishes and gumdrops? No. it grows from investment by the people partaking in it.