Sex!

a reply to: Bluesma

I am an American who lost his virginity in Germany to an Asian woman. I may have been a "late bloomer", but when I made it, I made it with a splash.

When I got back to America I wished I hadn't. The oppression was so obvious when I had a morally "fluid" environment for 2 years with which to learn about sex. It was then I Realized why I was a late bloomer. Even though I was born in America, I don't share the typical Protestant based anxieties about sex that almost everyone in America seems to grow up with and are burdened with. I simply didn't fit in. I also see the personal issues that stem from that. Sexual oppression early in life, in whatever form, leads to sexual weirdness later in life.

You see promiscuity and experimentation as "ambitious" and taboo, and people think that you're more evolved on a sexual level than your peers. You're not. When you go out on a limb sexually because you're being rebellious against your parents' and societies' hang-ups about sex.......that's not being being ambitious. That's being a spiteful child. You're being a freak out of spite.

When you do whatever your sexual thoughts tell you because you realize that sex is a natural part of life that should not be handcuffed, blindfolded and whipped into submission..........well, then you can do all of the above without feeling or thinking "Man, that was progressive and "out there". You can do that and feel really good about it.

When you do what you do because your mind knows it's natural, your body feels better about it.

a reply to: DeepImpactX

And then when one of your partners comes to you and says, "I'm pregnant ..." or "I tested positive for HIV ..."

How do you handle that? Sex is a normal part of life, but the thing that so many who have your mindset tend to forget is that it's natural because it's intended for procreation by nature, not pleasure. So to treat it solely as a source of pleasure and recreation without the respect it deserves for its true natural function leads to all kinds of unintended consequences which are very uncomfortable for a lot of people.

a reply to: ketsuko

Not really.

Humans are social creatures and as with many social creatures, sex is as much a social interaction as it is for procreation.

Also, humans are very new in our understanding of concepts such as mating strategies, we've barely scratched the surface. When you mix potential mating strategies with the social complexes that humans experience, the meaning of sex changes and the understanding of what "nature" is and what "nature" will be in the future morphs right along with it.

While STDs are a risk as always, they do not make people into perpetrators for having sex. They are diseases, and like all diseases and illnesses it is the fault of the disease or illness for existing, not the people for catching them.

I could say people are evil for catching colds because they touched a doorknob and didn't think to wash their hands afterward. They know doorknobs have germs, so obviously they are at fault for not being more cautious.

But then, that's a bit silly isn't it?

a reply to: OrphanApology

Yes really.

If we stopped needing sex to procreate as a species, our bodies would evolve away from it. The systems needed for sex are very biologically expensive to maintain. If we stop needing sex, we stop needing those system. They would go away as unnecessary.

And if you want to discuss the other uses of sex in the animal kingdom. It's used for mainly for dominance and hierarchy when it's not used for procreation, but those are still issues related to who gets to breed or at least is most successful at breeding.

And you'll note I didn't call sex "evil." You introduced that word. I merely said it needs to be treated with the respect that comes with its primary natural function.

a reply to: ketsuko

You state that sex is used primarily as a dominance tool(which is a social interaction btw) and hierarchy(another social interaction) without even touching upon our closest relative genetically:

The Bonobo!

Look them up and understand that not everything in the animal kingdom is a lion...especially humans.

Sex in the human world is a social interaction that is also procreative depending upon those who are doing the said interaction. But procreation is not the only or even main focus of sex and thank goodness for that, because if it was...humans would have died out long ago due to overpopulation. Good thing our social interactions, technological advancements, and other humanisms have outpaced the procreative aspect of our sexuality.


Also, I introduced the word evil because you stated that focusing on sex as a recreational thing ends in"unintended consequences"...the nature of your paragraph structure creates a very ominous viewpoint toward people who view sex as a primarily recreational and social interaction with procreation being secondary. I introduced the word evil, because that was the word that your ominous paragraph structure created in my mind.

Also, to state that sex has a primal natural function means you understand what primal is, natural is, and what either really mean.

Science, with all it's hours and lives spent devoted to it, hasn't even touched the surface of what primal means. It hasn't touched the surface on what natural behavior is in humans. We barely know how genetics work much less how they play into behavior. Hell, we don't have any control groups and probably never will...to make assumptions on what is normal you'd have to have a control group to compare everyone else to.

...so please...

don't get into what sex's primal natural intended purpose is because quite frankly...you don't know.

No one does yet.

Sorry.

Procreation is a part of it, but it's secondary to humans. That's why we are at the place we are today.

originally posted by: anticitizen
yeah people in the usa are extremely weird when it comes to sex.
not long ago the mods deleted a thread where we talked about sex in a funny way.
reason was: there are kids watching.
but discussing beheadings every day is ok.
i think violence is more harmful to children but ok, that's their rules.

i'm not a fan of a constant flood if sex related discussions either. for me it's more a private thing.
having other topics and interests than sex is one reason that separates us from apes.

Oh, I hope this isn't considered against policy here- I thought if we had a serious that doesn't get too graphic, it might be okay. I have lots of interests, and do discuss them, but sex is something that we all kind of have in common and relate on.

originally posted by: ketsuko
What many don't understand about men is that they are much more physical. Little boys are far more likely to be touchy, feely cuddly than their female counterparts who are going to tell you all about how they feel.

.

Good point! I was involved in another discussion elsewhere on this subject, and some women have grumbles about men being so easily sexually expressive, at the drop of a hat, without caring about a womans emotional needs. That a man who has been emotionally distant expects the woman to feel okay about getting it on, is insensitive.

I made the observation that, if many women need some emotional stimulation to "let go" sexually, I suspect that men often need sexual stimulation to "let go" emotionally!

Women may feel the pressures of societies values and contradictions- be sexually open, but don't be a nympho-slut, just as men have to deal with the same in the expectation to be strong willed and independant, but also emotionally open.

It's hard to find balance, for both sexes!

originally posted by: DeepImpactX

You see promiscuity and experimentation as "ambitious" and taboo, and people think that you're more evolved on a sexual level than your peers. You're not. When you go out on a limb sexually because you're being rebellious against your parents' and societies' hang-ups about sex.......that's not being being ambitious. That's being a spiteful child. You're being a freak out of spite.

When you do whatever your sexual thoughts tell you because you realize that sex is a natural part of life that should not be handcuffed, blindfolded and whipped into submission..........well, then you can do all of the above without feeling or thinking "Man, that was progressive and "out there". You can do that and feel really good about it.

When you do what you do because your mind knows it's natural, your body feels better about it.

OMG, what a clear and distinct observation! I agree wholeheartedly! I often feel that many young people are confusing the two attitudes!

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: DeepImpactX

And then when one of your partners comes to you and says, "I'm pregnant ..." or "I tested positive for HIV ..."

How do you handle that? Sex is a normal part of life, but the thing that so many who have your mindset tend to forget is that it's natural because it's intended for procreation by nature, not pleasure. So to treat it solely as a source of pleasure and recreation without the respect it deserves for its true natural function leads to all kinds of unintended consequences which are very uncomfortable for a lot of people.

You handle that by honest communication and effective protection. I remember the day my son, who had been with his girlfriend for three years, announced to us that they were getting tested for AIDs, and preparing to take off the condom.
They planned it out, they were responsible and facing reality- I kind of thought it was silly, because I didn't see any reason for taking off the condom, but they had never experienced sex without it, so it was an experience they wanted to have. (I was thankful to know that , actually). But if there is less taboo about the subject altogether, more responsibility enters the picture, I suspect!

a reply to: Bluesma I have always done this with girlfriends when it gets serious. Having an std test can put both minds at rest and sex without a condom is far more enjoyable in my experience. Wearing a condom is like having a shower in a raincoat. It also can ruin the moment, having to go through the rigmarole of putting one on, during the heat of the moment

I don't know if this is a good decision, but the point ketsuko made, about the way men are more physically expressive than verbally, made me think of an experience I had. Though sharing such personal experiences are risky (I may get this back in my face by a certain poster on this site that likes to do that) it is also a way people can momentarily step in your shoes and see things from a different perspective- which has a huge value in trying to comprehend others.

When my husband and I decided to check out the libertine thing, we went to a club of that sort. We danced, and I guess he liked seeing me be dressed sexy, dancing in an uninhibited way, and seeing other men watching me with desire.
We did end up going to part of the back room which had a space that had been described to us as "for beginners"- precisely because it was private, had a door that locked, and no one could see inside. We did have sexual intercourse (staying non-graphic here, mods!).

So in talking about the experience later, I explained that I was not comfortable.... I didn't feel at ease in this environment, I was distracted by all the people who kept yanking on the door trying to get in ( to watch, to participate, I don't know), I was unable to enjoy myself and it all felt mechanic or "showy" to me.

His face fell, he was disappointed, surprised and perhaps even hurt! He had thought it was one of the most intimate, loving moments possible! It was the "loving" part that surprised me. It was very hard for me to grasp, how that could be experienced by him that way.

But I think, somewhere, he felt that my accepting his different sort of pleasure- in showing off his wife, in seeing that others would like to have her, and can't (because he also came to the conclusion that he is too jealous and would not be able to handle seeing me with someone else) there was a certain intimacy between us.... I was opening to who he is internally. He was being himself and I was right there with him, not judging. Because normally, yeah, I admit, I think it is somewhat repulsive for a person to show off and take pleasure in seeing others being envious (though he would think of it as making them feel inspired, or admirative).

But the act itself was felt as more intimate and loving to him, because there was an emotional need he was being allowed to live out. Our brains just don't all work the same, and we can sometimes be very surprised by what is going on inside another!
An act that a woman might sneer at as "empty sex" could be a monumental emotional exchange for a man! We are just as capable of being insensitive to them as them to us. The lack of verbal exchange doesn't mean there is no emotional vulnerability happening. It felt risky to him, to reveal to me that he had this slightly exhibitionist drive in him. And I didn't recognize it at that time.

originally posted by: DAVID64

If emotional needs are met, why would someone want to be with someone else? Just for a different experience? Different size , technique or whatever? If all parts of the marriage are going well, one partner should not be seeking someone else. I would take it as "not good enough" and I would absolutely take it as "I don't love you anymore" if my wife wanted someone else. That's not insecure, it called Being Married. When you marry someone, you are saying that you've shopped around long enough, that you've found the one you want to spend the rest of your life with.

I understand what you are saying. I think that ten years ago, I could have written this post.. in fact I think I did write one just like it!

I realize that what I wrote is like a slap in the face when you see things this way. My mind has changed somewhat.
In my case, neither of us want someone else- and we honestly tried to open our minds to the possibility, and don't have any absolute morals concerning it- it is just our individual natures that don't feel okay with this.

But in getting to know people who do, I found there are many reasons and ways people can love someone, and ALSO enjoy others- in fact for some of them, it is an activity that increases their intimacy and sense of complicity!

There are actually many different sorts of internal mechanisms that happen- too many to actually fit all those people into one description. Some get excited watching their mate have sex with another, because they are so close, they live out things through that partner (like men that find it exciting to see their wife with another woman- I think a lot of guys will relate to that one).
There is the fear of unknown mixed with sexual excitement, which increases the intensity of experience. There is the relief from feeling the pressure of sexual performance (there's another to compensate in any area that might be lacking), there's sometimes a sort of predator-mates thing, where they feel close in scoping out a target together (I heard the term "new meat" used a few times), in which they both feel more loved and close because they relate to and accept each others need for sexual conquest.

The list goes on and on.

The thing is, we just are not all the same, and what is good for me, might not be good for another, and vice versa. But in talking about relationships, that really matters! There are people who truly love their partner, AND desire other experiences as well. A lot of those claimed that the "extras" spiced up their intimate acts, made them want each other even more when alone. (there is actually some scientific findings to back that up).

a reply to: Bluesma
I sometimes get aroused at my girlfriend being with someone else. I'm sure if I saw it happen though my jealous side would come out

a reply to: Bluesma

As a woman, I am very fulfilled by my relationship. And on an emotional level feel very fore filled and loved. However, it does not stop my mind from wondering what it would be like sleeping with others. And do have the desire to do so, and do have a very primeval (?) urge of 'Honkle Honkle' towards other men. When I fantasise it is not always with my partner in my head, I am open and honest with my partner about this.

I have read 50 shades all 3, twice, and seen the film. My previous relationship to the one i am in allowed me to explore that side of sexuality and sensuality. My current partner isn't into it, so my box of naughtiness gathers dust on top of the wardrobe, for a rainy day but it doesn't mean I am sexually unforefilled it is a sexual sensuousness of a different nature.

I think if you are an emotionally mature woman, and are honest with yourself, thinking about it is natural. I have a friend who can't even say what actors she wants to clamber up and down if she wanted to as she feels it is cheating on her fiance. I feel sorry for her. I believe that she has mixed her emotional and sexual fulfillment together and hitched it to one wagon and horse.

I care and love my partner, but sexual desire although an important factor in any healthy relationship can be separate in one's mind.

There seems to be a taboo in our country against acknowledgement of men needing affection. The need for sex is easily admitted, but affection? Just love and care? Not so easily said. That seems to be considered too effeminate.

Firstly may I say what a fascinating OP

Call me a wimp if you like but I need hugs and affection and have no problem whatsoever in admitting so.

I was very promiscuous as a younger man, I volunteered on a kibbutz for 3 years before meeting my ex wife, it was party party party. Almost literally a different girl every night, occasionally there might be a 2 or 3 month "relationship" develop, but as we all came from around the globe and were moving on it was understood that getting serious was only ever going to cause hurt.

Experimentation was rife, and very enjoyable, the different attitudes towards sex from the different countries was quite remarkable. I hate to generalise but I'm going to have to. In my experience Scandinavian girls were very open to sex for the hell of it. The South Americans were wild and passionate but insanely jealous (When I ended up with a South American I stayed with her until she left, it was safer ) The Australian girls were much more brash (maybe practical would be a better word) about it, South Africans, now that was a challenge to be relished, it took time and patience. Afrikaans girls were damn near impossible (damn near). And then there was the ultimate conquest. One of the resident kibbutz girls, they had nothing to gain and everything to lose.

All that was 25 years ago, and one of the South Africans after a failed marriage on both our sides is now my wife of 8 years tomorrow

Would I share her ? No way, it took us years to realise this love we share and our intimacy is precisely that, intimate.

If you've read my posts you'll know I call her the cuddle monster, there's a reason for that, and I love it.

Cody

a reply to: pheonix358

1. A synapse connection between nudity and Sex. It should not be there. It is simply wrong.

I completely agree with this. I am open with my body in front of both men and women to quote the Gloria Gaynor song 'I am what I am'. There is a distinction between nudity, nakedness and sexual body imagery.

I feel this starts in the home. I remember as a girl having conversations with my mum, when we were both getting ready for school/work where she was just stood in the nude, or in knickers, and tights. Felt perfectly normal for me to see my mum naked. I came out of her!

What struck me was that this is not a given in many households.

An example, I was round at my best friends house, and we were getting ready to go out. I had just come out of the bath (my house I lived in next door didn't have one) and as it was just us girls (my best friend, and her two daughters) started getting dressed in front of them.

This caused a stir, as neither the children had ever seen, including their mother, a fully grown woman's naked body.

The reason behind this, was that their mother had no body confidence, so she never felt comfortable naked in front of anybody, not even her children. Now this confidence issue has passed onto her 6 year old girl, who feels embarrassed about being naked, when at that age she should have the ignorance and confidence to wander around naked if she wants and feel no shame.

They now associate nakedness with shame, rather than a natural state of being.

I think it is really sad.

My own ability to be open minded on the subject developed slowly- started with people here coming up while I was breastfeeding my baby, (covered up modestly with a blanket) and they'd actually pull the blanket off to watch the nursing child and ohh and ahh... here it is a vision of beauty and love to see woman breastfeeding. Nothing sexual.

Then I got up the guts to go to a nude beach- which are quite commonplace here. I was surprised how easy that was- I was comfortable within ten minutes, though I had felt really nervous about it.

It was separating the nude body from a purely sexual context that was challenging. I realized it was a totally new concept to me, as an american!

I would definitely agree with the notion that emotional intimacy and sexual intimacy are definitely a meshed, if not intertwined practice within Western culture. Having been an escort. I definitely experienced that in my time I found most women to crave the physical intimacy such as being held, kissed, etc.

Yet undoubtedly they had that linked to flow into a sex based act and outcome. I do agree it's not a healthy ideal. Yet men on the other hand may be too sensitive to maintaining a sense of "manhood" to divulge or to simply act upon their own want for that physical intimacy. Without leading to sex.

The issue is communication of intimacy. Both physical and interpersonal.

If us humans lived by one rule...we would be much better off.

"EVERYTHING in moderation, never in obsession and always for the right reason".

Yes...I took a well known rule and modified it. The biggest change I made was capitalizing EVERYTHING. This includes religious beliefs, sex, love and pleasure...etc. Something good and good for you can become bad simply by doing it obsessively or for the wrong reason(s).

You see...I have a little theory about humans. We can not actually reach Heaven. Heaven being a place of eternal peace, love and happiness. Why? Because humans get bored and always want more. Sure...we could be given "Heaven", but eventually we will say "there must be more", and off we go again. Even those who have everything, always want more...bigger...better. We are on a constant journey looking for something bigger or better...or more. True "Heaven" would be if we could look around us and say..."this is good enough...forever". But I don't believe we are capable. We are the universe's addicts.

Over rated stuff and nonsense. Youth and vigor, needs to find more adequate outlets. Everything here is akin to lower mind, and this is something that needs to transform to a higher energy form. However, that being said, attraction and love, is the stuff that dreams are made of, the magic that can be found between people, but due to being caught up in the nonsense world around, without striving for goals, its often lost. Think friendships are the most valuable in the end.
True Love gets better on the other side, out of lower mind.