U.S. Army personnel of all ranks engage in 'dishonesty and deception'

www.upi.com...

(Sorry if this is the wrong forum, I can't post to posse comitas for some reason.)

A recent U.S. Army War College study states "dishonesty and deception" among Army personnel is common, often encouraged to maintain a false sense of integrity.

I'm not even sure I have to words to do this one justice. In fact, I know I don't.

In the study called "Lying to Ourselves: Dishonesty in the Army Profession," the War College's Strategic Studies Institute interviewed Army personnel from all ranks and found that lies permeate throughout the military institution, whether by civilians or those in uniform.

The study is not yet available as a PDF download. I can't wait!

Part of the reason why lying is so prevalent is because there is a psychological disconnect between performing a dishonest act and facing the consequence for it.

"A moral decision can lose its ethical overtones if the eventual repercussions of such a choice are either unknown or minimized," the study said. "For example, it is a common perception that much of the information submitted upward disappears into the ether of the Army bureaucracy."

This is coming from army officers, from what I gather - that they believe "much" of the information disappears, and not only that - they don't trust the sources it came from to begin with because deception is so common from their own corps.

From the study's page:

 Further, much of the deception and dishonesty that occurs in the profession of arms is actually encouraged and sanctioned by the military institution. The end result is a profession whose members often hold and propagate a false sense of integrity that prevents the profession from addressing—or even acknowledging—the duplicity and deceit throughout the formation. It takes remarkable courage and candor for leaders to admit the gritty shortcomings and embarrassing frailties of the military as an organization in order to better the military as a profession. 

I'm a champion of the troops. Please don't turn this thread into an anti-military screaming contest. The instinct is to point fingers at people in uniform and scream "this is your fault", but it's not a military issue, it's a HUMAN issue.

People will deceive, there are very few that can say they don't tell little white lies, etc. It becomes an issue when there are LOTS of people, lying about lots of different things. It becomes a massive issue when these figures hold positions of power.

This distrust/lying cycle creates an uninformed military hierarchy that is responsible for making life changing decisions for its populous.

So much intelligence can/has/will slip through the cracks, and they are reluctantly admitting that accountability for this loss is nil.

Our own military is telling us that it's easier/better to lie because you'll never get caught. There's so much deceit, apparently telling the truth is pointless.

It is not a conspiracy in itself, but it certainly creates the environment for breeding conspiracy.

I want to hear from our members in the armed forces and see how they feel this measures up to their realities.

a reply to: FireflyStars

Not everyone can post in every forum: Rules. Read them

a reply to: FireflyStars

The lessons start early in public school and come to full flower in higher education.

Not at all surprised that the policy pervades our military academy.

a reply to: mysterioustranger

Not everyone can post in every forum: Rules. Read them

I do read the rules. I have memory problems, so unfortunately I don't retain the minutiae of bulletin board policy. It's either try to craft a meaningful post now and then, or re-read ATS forum policy all day long.

My bad.

originally posted by: FireflyStars
I want to hear from our members in the armed forces and see how they feel this measures up to their realities.

I was in the Air Force for 28 years so I'm not sure what they are talking about. When they say lies, what do they mean? "lots" just doesn't narrow it down very much....

This doesn't surprise me one bit, just look at the amount of deceptive people we have in Government, it's sickening if you ask me.




Peace

a reply to: FireflyStars

"dishonesty and deception" among Army personnel is common, often encouraged to maintain a false sense of integrity.

ding ding ding....

Hate be the barer of bad news...but this is on civilization level. Not just military. If you're not seeing that our world is made up of lies...day in day out.

From the political arena, through the military on to the civilians. Everybody lies...everybody wants to keep the job...and telling the truth is way to brutal to come to terms with.

Anyway...good you posted this...but it comes as no surprise to me.

What scares me the most is people...not believing they are being lied to daily. It's this innocent world view...

Lying is a mathematical inevitability for humans. The sooner we all come to terms with that...the easier it will be for us.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: FireflyStars
I want to hear from our members in the armed forces and see how they feel this measures up to their realities.

I was in the Air Force for 28 years so I'm not sure what they are talking about. When they say lies, what do they mean? "lots" just doesn't narrow it down very much....

Hoping we will get more info when the study is published online. I'll keep the thread updated when it is!

the system in the military encourages lies now.

My wife just failed a pt test, first thing her supervisor said was was" when you failed that segment you should have claimed illness so it wouldn't count"

you have academy grads taught you can't trust enlisted.

When you own up to a mistake it's now paperwork that will effect your epr and promotions.

The system that is in place encourages lies from top to bottom.

That my perspective 18 yrs usaf.

This is just another reason why the Army will never be as good as the Marine Corps.
Not matter how hard they try to tell themselves, nasty stinking Army turds don't have any discipline.

I found a copy of the report for $5 but I'll wait til it's free.
In the meantime here's an excerpt of examples from
www.armytimes.com...

A captain described how his unit complied with quarterly Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Program requirements: "We needed to get SHARP training done and reported to higher headquarters, so we called the platoons and told them to gather the boys around the radio and we said, 'Don't touch girls.'"

A nine-man squad pressed for time to complete a mandatory online course "would pick the smartest dude, and he would go in and take it nine times for the other members ... and then that way they had a certificate to prove that they had completed it.

"Enemy contacts in Afghanistan and Iraq would go unreported because they required a PowerPoint description after the fact, something some officers felt "was useless ... they didn't want to go through the hassle."

A captain recalled lying on a traumatic brain injury report — increasing the distance between a valued junior officer and an explosion — to avoid the possibility of a required medical evacuation. "If I do that," the captain said of the evac, "I'm going to put my boys in bags because they don't have any leadership. That ain't happening."

Obviously the most common offense is just cutting corners to avoid red tape, but the provided examples in the report take it to the next level.

The authors also made it clear that the enormous load of paperwork officers are saddled with contributes to the problem. Who among us hasn't wanted to cut to the chase?

Officers sometimes face a "suffocating amount" of tasks. Often, they use phrases to make it seem as if they complied to all requirements demanded.

.....
The most highlighted rationalization to partake in dishonesty is that it is often necessary to lie because the task asked of personnel or the reporting required of them is unreasonable, irritating or "dumb."

"I think some expectation of equivocation is accepted on dumb things," one officer said..

If only we could all just skip the stuff we arbitrarily thought was "dumb"! I'm not defending the bureaucracy or unnecessary paperwork, but if I thought slowing/stopping at yellow lights was dumb, I'd wreak some serious havoc.

a reply to: FireflyStars

Was just addressing there was a reason you couldn't post in that forum!

I was in the Royal Military Police for many years in the British army, and whilst i can't vouch for every soldier out there, when it comes to dishonesty that results in criminal action, i would say with hand on heart that this does not represent the majority of troops out there.

Yes i know this study relates to US troops, but i worked with so many and dealt with so many in a busy NATO garrison, i don't think this report is as true as it states.

Most soldiers i met and had dealings with knew the difference from right and wrong, and would feel bad about it. I have seen many a soldier refuse an order because it was wrong or inappropriate in their eyes.

I'm not saying this doesn't happen, i just hope people aren't naive enough to take it as a blanket statement about all troops.

CX.

It starts at the top with the commander-in-chief a reply to: FireflyStars

originally posted by: watchitburn
This is just another reason why the Army will never be as good as the Marine Corps.
Not matter how hard they try to tell themselves, nasty stinking Army turds don't have any discipline.

watchitburn? You earn that name on a past deployment, 6 months of turd burning detail?

a reply to: Jhugener

Ha ha,

No, I lucked out. Never got stuck burning crap, I'm squared away, we saved that job for all our dirt bags.

originally posted by: watchitburn
This is just another reason why the Army will never be as good as the Marine Corps.
Not matter how hard they try to tell themselves, nasty stinking Army turds don't have any discipline.

Trolololol! Yea, because God knows nobody in the Corps has, does, or ever would lie, right? Please. Boot.

To the OP: I'm surprised there's any surprise about this, but I'm also confused as to the intent. Are they talking about each and every opportunity to lie being taken? As in "lunch was great, no seriously it was" or are they only talking about strictly military related issues?

a reply to: Shamrock6

I posted some examples they included in the study, after my OP. We don't have access to the full report yet. When I get my paws on it I'll give you guys a thorough synopsis!

a reply to: FireflyStars

The entire US modern culture is based on lies narcism and deprevity

There I said it

a reply to: FireflyStars

Apologies. That was a hit and run post, prior to coffee consumption, and I should have made it clear I was still reading up. My bad.

Lying is pervasive. All ranks, all branches. I think the content of the lie is the more important issue. The intent behind the lie is more important. Whining about a guy telling his butterbar LT that a warehouse got cleaned 100% when it wasn't isn't on par with a guy telling his butterbar "nah, we didn't off any civvies in that house" when they did. And the overwhelming majority of personnel recognize the difference.