Russia 'danger' to Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia - Fallon

originally posted by: swanne

Simple answer: because otherwise everyone would realize that China and Iran are really accomplices.

Notice that they did not recognise Russia's annexation of Crimea, but they do not speak against it neither.

Putin has claimed numerous times his actions were lawful. If that is the case then those nations should of had no issues supporting Russia. I think it says a lot that they didn't. I think their silence is based on the illegality of Russian actions.

Russia also created a boomerang effect with his actions in Crimea. It opened the door for other nations with territorial issues / ethnic populations to go down the same road using the same Russian argument. Those actions can run in both directions.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
The Baltic countries know Russia very well.

Russia knows the Baltic countries well too. Complicit regimes in the holocaust of Soviet Russia. They know they lean to the tipping point of the right. Nazis if you will.

HAHAHA! I love it! The Baltics are called Nazis already! You guys are classic...

a reply to: swanne

I think that scenario is going a little too far and would require a million and one unforeseeable things to happen. Right now I think we have enough on our plate with the potential invasion of three more nations.

I believe the taking of these nations would be for strategic geographical gain and the forcing back of NATO. The taking of E Ukraine (a non-NATO nation) was clever, because it wasn't enough to force a NATO response, but now gives Russia a base outside of Russia from which to launch against other countries in the region, with Russia able to claim that it's all the fault of those pesky (and absolutely, entirely non-Russian) Rebels.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Secondly I very seriously doubt any state would want Russian assistance.

I used to share such doubts. But many american citizens love Putin. And many Americans are actually asking for a Sino-Russia sponsored intervention inside USA.

For instance:

Russia and China should FINANCE Ferguson protests to make them BIGGER

After all.

US and CIA do this to other countries.

(I put my hand to my ear) What's that Americans, you wouldn't like that would you ?

I love how Americans keep saying even on ATS, if you are against government fine.....but don't hurt the people.

I got news for you, YOU ARE THE GOVERNMENT, when your government goes to kill other people in their countries and you do nothing. You are the government.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
I don't think NATO will invoke article 5 in a scenario like that. With modern anti-air defenses backing up the rebels NATO can't simply bomb away like they enjoy doing. It will have to be NATO boots on the ground which most NATO members will refuse. The US will refuse because it's on the Russian border and could cause a World War by direct engagement.

Same playbook as Ukraine really. Within 5 years and probably Estonia as it is being the most anti-Russian of the Baltics.

I'm not so sure that we wouldn't jump in, as we're already in there.
NATO would not likely just do nothing when a Rebel offensive springs up in a NATO state. But, I really wouldn't want to be the first pilot to be flying in there with those weapons aimed at me. You can pretty much guarantee that the moment a NATO plane attempts to assist the military of any invaded nation around Ukraine those Russian anti-aircraft guns would all light up.

I agree with you on the plan though, I think we're going to see an incursion of "Rebels" in one after another of these countries, and NATO will have to respond on the ground. This could lead to a larger proxy war as Russia continues to deny any involvement.

I wouldn't be surprised if in 10 years WW3 breaks out with Russia trying to gain former USSR countries and start a conflict with Saudia Arabia and allies. Although I'm not sure about India and China, will they pick Russia/Iran/allies or EU/US/SA/allies. I always expected WW3 to begin after an obvious escalation of a regional conflict but this is taking decades. It appears like slow moving giants getting in to place for the final showdown.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Good point there.

Well, I must take my leave now.

Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion, a star for all your posts.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: swanne

Simple answer: because otherwise everyone would realize that China and Iran are really accomplices.

Notice that they did not recognise Russia's annexation of Crimea, but they do not speak against it neither.

Putin has claimed numerous times his actions were lawful. If that is the case then those nations should of had no issues supporting Russia. I think it says a lot that they didn't. I think their silence is based on the illegality of Russian actions.

Russia also created a boomerang effect with his actions in Crimea. It opened the door for other nations with territorial issues / ethnic populations to go down the same road using the same Russian argument. Those actions can run in both directions.

And lets also not forget that China needs its exports to survive. It is the manufacturing powerhouse of the world right now, and support for Russia would directly involve them in a battle with their main trading partners.

China might like Russia for the Oil, but China needs buyers otherwise access to that Oil is pointless.

originally posted by: Rocker2013


That was fascinating to see, it was a perfect statement and I was actually quite impressed.
It bolstered his arrogant appeal and pandered to the hard-line, it propped up his public image of the "tough leader", and it lent some credibility with the feeble minded.

Of course, he could have attempted to take five European capitals (he would have faced NATO), but he would have also had to openly do it as a Russian invader and aggressor.

NATO / neighboring countries have already stated any type of action of the likes that occurred in Ukraine/Crimea would be considered an attack.

originally posted by: Rocker2013

I've been watching this with interest too. I'm torn on the intent though. I think this is poking and prodding, perhaps hoping that someone might make a move and take out one of his, thereby justifying an open conflict.
It's also possible that Russia is just testing responses more routinely than it has done previously. When you're at a state of impending conflict all those strategies and game plays need to be updated to be as accurate as possible. One movement of a unit in another country can throw off several plans.

Of course it could all be training or a return to the cold war style of "showing the flag" so to speak. However one could argue that even those actions have a sinister undertone to them.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
I'd like to see that too, there is a lot of evidence out there for all to see, but it hasn't really been collated and presented properly.

I do think the moment they do that we should perhaps prepare for the brown stuff to hit a rotating thing though. They usually "make the case" right before taking direct action, don't they? Perhaps that's why they've been reluctant to do so?

In the case of the Cuban missile crisis Stevenson made his case to the UN assembly and provided the evidence. The result was the removal of those weapons.

The other red flag was Russia's position with the OSCE. While Russia supported the OSCE missions to Ukraine they restricted the observers to only a couple of locations. All efforts to get OSCE monitoring all along the border was consistently blocked by Russia. This issue came up at one of the UNSC meetings. Churkin stated this was the wrong forum to bring that issue up. That was the second red flag, imo, showing Putin was playing both sides of the street.

originally posted by: swanne

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Secondly I very seriously doubt any state would want Russian assistance.

I used to share such doubts. But many american citizens love Putin. And many Americans are actually asking for a Sino-Russia sponsored intervention inside USA.

For instance:

Russia and China should FINANCE Ferguson protests to make them BIGGER

After all.

US and CIA do this to other countries.

(I put my hand to my ear) What's that Americans, you wouldn't like that would you ?

I love how Americans keep saying even on ATS, if you are against government fine.....but don't hurt the people.

I got news for you, YOU ARE THE GOVERNMENT, when your government goes to kill other people in their countries and you do nothing. You are the government.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I honestly think you're reading into the propaganda there.
While there are a few radical Americans (and a lot of rather naive young Americans who can't side against Russia because of Snowden) siding with Russia in an attempt to be cool and anti-American, any conflict between Russia and the US would galvanize the vast majority of the American public in self defense.

It's the same in the UK. We all complain and criticize our own government over all kinds of things, and we know that our involvement in a few previous wars was utterly reprehensible, but that would not impact in any real way on the defense of our nation or the defense of our European neighbours.

There will always be idealistic people wanting to end all war (but never able to explain how we then defend ourselves) and those who cannot see each event on its own and have to condemn everything in order to keep it simple in their minds, but the vast majority would want to act as a single nation.

originally posted by: swanne

I used to share such doubts. But many american citizens love Putin. And many Americans are actually asking for a Sino-Russia sponsored intervention inside USA.

Americans also love Queen Elizabeth however I don't see Americans calling for a reinstatement of the US as a British territory. just as I don't see them asking for Sino-Russian assistance.

originally posted by: swanne
For instance:

Russia and China should FINANCE Ferguson protests to make them BIGGER

There already was groups funding the protests all over the US. Again, unless Russia and China fund them secretly without getting caught I doubt those groups would sell out.

originally posted by: swanne
After all.

US and CIA do this to other countries.

So does every other nation on the planet, including Russia, China and even Iran. This is not an American only action.

originally posted by: swanne
(I put my hand to my ear) What's that Americans, you wouldn't like that would you ?

I love how Americans keep saying even on ATS, if you are against government fine.....but don't hurt the people.

Domestically speaking that is correct. Its contained in that pesky document called the US Constitution.

originally posted by: swanne
I got news for you, YOU ARE THE GOVERNMENT, when your government goes to kill other people in their countries and you do nothing. You are the government.

Contrary to popular belief the US is not a democracy. It is a Constitutional Representative Republic. Yes the governments legitimacy and authority come from the consent of the people. The Constitution spells out each branches authority and area of responsibility.

However the US has not annexed those countries.

I love the fact that we the people get to overthrow our government every 2 years.

a reply to: Rocker2013

Instead of fighting anti Russia shills overall on the internet, who were just yesterday anti Iran or anti flavour of the year

Instead of asking how come US has a problem with every single sovereign country

I've decided to join them because I can't beat them

Putin did 9/11 not US government

Putin gave Syrian Rebels enough money and guns so they became ISIS

Putin financed a coup on Kiev Ukraine to install anti Putin government. Poor sap made a mistake

Putin Destroyed Libya

Putin bombed a whole lot of countries in ME

Putin supports Israeli enlargement and settlements

Putin likes to have sex with devil and various demons

Putin Putin Putin Putin (head just exploded)

a reply to: PizzaAnyday505

How is your post related to the op question?

a reply to: Xcathdra

This thread is about Russia

It even has Russia in the title

originally posted by: PizzaAnyday505
a reply to: Xcathdra

This thread is about Russia

It even has Russia in the title

yeah but your claims are not supported by, well, anything.

just saying

a reply to: Xcathdra

Ahem

When were you interested in facts ?

originally posted by: PizzaAnyday505
a reply to: Xcathdra

Ahem

When were you interested in facts ?

You really need to stop with the personal attacks. When you post on topic and end personal attacks I will be more than happy to engage you in debate.

Until then your on your own.

KNOCK IT OFF

The personal attacks and back and forth end now. Keep it up and posting privileges will be suspended.

This is your only warning.

Do not reply to this post.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: PizzaAnyday505
a reply to: Xcathdra

Ahem

When were you interested in facts ?

You really need to stop with the personal attacks. When you post on topic and end personal attacks I will be more than happy to engage you in debate.

Until then your on your own.

I know it's hard, but please try to ignore the distractions and the attempts to derail the discussion and send it into the inevitable squabble these threads often become.

Just ignore it.

a reply to: PizzaAnyday505

Standard attack on the thread topic. Not enough mod's to have a discussion about a topic involving Russia here obviously.