Does anyone believe Bob Lazar is legit?

a reply to: peter vlar

Curious what you think about this:

Is there a way to prove any part of his story? Maybe. In 1989, Lazar claimed the ET saucers he worked on could produce their own gravity. This propulsion was made possible by a superheavy substance Lazar called Element 115. What is the problem with this story? Element 115 did not exist in 1989. Now, however, it does.

Scientists at the Lawrence Livermore Lab created a miniscule amount of 115 last year. A profound development, but the material decayed almost instantly. So where did the government get 500 pounds of the stuff, which is what Lazar claimed long ago?

Lazar says, "It has to come from some place where it's natural, like from a super nova."

In other words, it comes from a solar system other than ours. Lazar's critics say the fact that 115 as created in a lab is unstable and fleeting proves Lazar is a liar. Lazar says the first batch was only a starting point and that he will be proven right in the long run.

"I'd like to see them continue to work and produce different isotopes of 115 because they're gonna come up with a handful of different varieties and they're gonna come up with a stable isotope, and that's what we're interested," he countered.

www.8newsnow.com...

originally posted by: aynock
a reply to: Bloodydagger

the main problem for me is the idea that an 'above top secret' project would hire someone like bob (even if everything he says about his educational background is true) and put them to work figuring out how ufos work

i'd have thought they would use people who had a proven track record of working on secret projects, and keeping their mouth shut whilst doing so

Some have speculated that his "big mouth" quality is one of the reason's he was hired. (you know, "let the leaking begin".)

Then on the other side, there are his "if anything happens to me", remarks --which some also believe is the only reason he remains alive. He advised the public he was worried about being assassinated for his disclosures.

So rather than kill him, they completely discredited him. Erased him.

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Some have speculated that his "big mouth" quality is one of the reason's he was hired. (you know, "let the leaking begin".)

i think it more likely he was leaking disinformation rather than legit information - the whole scenario he describes doesn't sound like the way anyone with any degree of competence would go about trying to figure out how a ufo worked - why not ask the guys who gave them the 115?

Then on the other side, there are his "if anything happens to me", remarks --which some also believe is the only reason he remains alive. He advised the public he was worried about being assassinated for his disclosures.

So rather than kill him, they completely discredited him. Erased him.

if the story was true, they'd want to kill it as quickly and as completely as possible - if some people start saying 'hey, that guy that died, he said he was reverse engineering ufos for the government and that if anything happened to him we should tell everybody about it' who would believe them?

it would actually discredit the idea that the government had anything to do with his death because most people would assume they were away with the fairies

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

"I'd like to see them continue to work and produce different isotopes of 115 because they're gonna come up with a handful of different varieties and they're gonna come up with a stable isotope, and that's what we're interested," he countered.

"It has to come from some place where it's natural, like from a super nova."

i see a contradiction in these two statements - how are scientists going to come up with a stable isotope when it can only be produced by a supernova?

originally posted by: aynock
a reply to: Maxmars

I find it odd that the data (if we are to call it that) of the story is secondary to the story teller's "excommunication."

when someone tells a tall tale with no evidence to back up the 'interesting' parts of the story, i think it's natural the attention will focus on the storyteller

if they look a bit shonky, and no further supporting evidence comes to light, then for good reason that's where the attention will stay

p.s. what's the 'academic industrial complex'? - i've not heard that term before

Sorry I didn't answer more quickly...

If I were to be vested in this topic, I would presumably be defensive about the idea that this "tale" can be designated "tall" without reviewing the story itself, based upon whatever disparaging information can be propagated about the teller.

I don't mind that much though, because no 'public' (or quasi official) respondent has ever tackled anything other than the personality and details of Lazar himself. No one at the time really ever tried to discuss the parameters of the assertions he was making; only that "he" was a fraud, and had no proof of his credentials... therefore we (as an audience of information consumers) were for all intents and purposes told to "pay no heed to that fraudster/lunatic" and classify anything and everything about him as not worthy of investigation, inquiry, or analysis. I wince at being sold that estimation by people who often are prone to lie or misrepresent the truth.

I accept the reasonable possibility, along with an almost infinite variety of possibilities, that he is not telling the truth, that all this could be part of a manipulative disinformation campaign, and that even his apparent grief was all theater. Except that the media made extraordinary efforts to malign this man's character... who did - at least according to reasonably valid allegation - have "something" to do with advanced technologies... at the theoretical level.

Hence my inclination to speculate that anything along the nature of 'campaigning' to malign someone strongly indicates further inquiry is necessary... and my consternation that every attempt leads to the same tired allegation; namely, that we shouldn't look at the information - and must blindly assume that the man worked at in one of the highest tech fields, in one of the most prestigious organizations requiring the highest academic level (let alone the most rigorous background checks and clearance investigations) all without any qualification... and interestingly, that he was prone to fabricate and confabulate facts.

PS - Academic Industrial Complex

The term is couched in dubious certainty; some thinks it was coined by a NY Times contributor in an article entitled "(The Academic-Industrial Complex", others think that it was at least birthed by proxy in President Eisenhower's famous address where the Military Industrial Complex was pointed out as a thing whose influence and power was to be "worried about" (Public Papers of the Presidents, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1960, p. 1035- 1040.)

Truthfully it matters not, because that there exists in our world a global "industrial" complex is an incontrovertible fact. This 'complex' embraces the the entire construct of governments, media, and commerce. The information shepherds are in place, and history is NOW being rewritten at a pace never before seen. The resources at the command of any entity, group, or cabal to change truth into an expedient tool is tremendously insidious. We have world leaders who are little more then creations of public relations machinery; there personal details are truly - next level bull# - and dissent is treated with ridicule; instead of somber analysis.

The academic industrial complex of which I speak can erase an academic career, or make a person seem like a scholar; when in fact they are anything but. Since they are intricately intertwined with "commerce" "politics" and "entertainment;" I feel they need to be called out at every turn.

Aside from the Hollywood-esque treatment usually offered up, I see that this conglomeration of global policy and global behavior "institutions" (which we are often assured "cant possibly be organized and led" but is instead the result of asinine myths like "free market" and "social evolution") manifests itself to ensure the continuity of wealth and prosperity for an infinitesimal group of families and associates. It is the only logical explanation for 99% of ALL wealth is in the hands of LESS than 1% of this planets population.

I don't want to do a disservice to our honored thread creator by further drifting from the central theme so I will direct my comments to the idea that there are many who have no credentials in their moral center, or skill set - yet they are doctors and scholars all. I suspect that scientific fact does not require a ritual of payment to institutions. If it is in fact true... not having a degree' will not render the truth into a lie... although the obverse is demonstrably true - especially in popular science.

I am not disposed to accept simply that Lazar was un-credentialed... more likely the erasure of Los Alamos Lab employee was the result of direct and purposeful administrative action - and the most likely executor of such an action is the "complex" which I postulate exists.

Again sorry for the topic drift...

a reply to: UnderKingsPeak

yep just here to say I too know a scientist who isn't a UFO buff but has confirmed Bob's credentials.

what's the scientists name?

a reply to: Maxmars

what do you find credible about his story?

does it make sense to you that the government would go about reverse engineering ufos in the way he describes?

what supporting evidence is there?


p.s. thanks for the elaboration on the 'academic industrial complex' - i thought it would be something like that

originally posted by: UnderKingsPeak

originally posted by: BerenstEiner
I totally believe him.

For a few reasons.

But heres one that just makes me think his story is legit.

Years ago, me and a few co-workers were in the locker room, changing from our scrubs to our street clothes. We used to chat about stupid crap, sports, chicks, whatever..

One day, I dont remember why, we started talking about UFOs and aliens. Well, one of my friends started telling us a story about this family friend would come over and share stories about alien technology that he worked on at a secret base in Nevada.

I was like "Whoa! That sounds like Bob Lazar!"

My co-worker replies "You know Bob too?"

I was like "No man! He's just famous for that story!"

He looked at me all puzzeled and crap.

I then asked him "How does your family know him!"

He replied "My dad worked with him at the lab."

His dad worked at Los Alamos National Labs.

I knew my co-worker grew up in Los Alamos. And just the obliviousnous of Bob being known for that story.

Thats when I knew he was legit.

yep just here to say I too know a scientist who isn't a UFO buff but has confirmed Bob's credentials.
Bob is the real deal folks. Start studying what he has said over the last 25 years. It's consistent,
so.. one head examination coming up...

And....I can just as easily say that I went to school with Bob, and even tried to tutor him in quantum mechanics. But it seemed he just didn't have the academic physics background needed to understand the material. He subsequently quit school that semester and never did graduate.

Go ahead, prove I am wrong

See how easily it could be to make a contradictory statement that cannot be proven wrong?

a reply to: aynock

Credible or will "not incredible" suffice? One does not necessarily exclude the other.

A former employee of an advanced research facility known to a key player in numerous black-tethered research projects claims he has become privy to hitherto unreported technical capabilities which he strongly believes originated from otherworldly technology.

Incredible? Really?

_____________________________

...and now the facts as we are most assured are true:

a) no one knows who this guy is; b) the school who credentialed him never heard of him...

sadly some totally insane people believe him... must be a social illness....

We must believe that the government security apparatus was entirely incompetent in placing this individual closer to top secret national defense technology... because uh.... who is this guy again?


Let's face it; rather than let private inquiry take it's course (although no journalist of standing would ever be allowed to tackle it at the time), a deliberate PR campaign was waged against Lazar... announcing the discovery that he was a fraud without elaborating how he had befuddled the top background clearance investigation machinery on the planet... all so he could fantasize about UFOs.

originally posted by: Maxmars
a reply to: aynock

Credible or will "not incredible" suffice? One does not necessarily exclude the other.

A former employee of an advanced research facility known to a key player in numerous black-tethered research projects claims he has become privy to hitherto unreported technical capabilities which he strongly believes originated from otherworldly technology.

Incredible? Really?

_____________________________

...and now the facts as we are most assured are true:

a) no one knows who this guy is; b) the school who credentialed him never heard of him...

sadly some totally insane people believe him... must be a social illness....

We must believe that the government security apparatus was entirely incompetent in placing this individual closer to top secret national defense technology... because uh.... who is this guy again?


Let's face it; rather than let private inquiry take it's course (although no journalist of standing would ever be allowed to tackle it at the time), a deliberate PR campaign was waged against Lazar... announcing the discovery that he was a fraud without elaborating how he had befuddled the top background clearance investigation machinery on the planet... all so he could fantasize about UFOs.

On the other hand, what actual evidence did Lazar produce?

originally posted by: Tangerine
On the other hand, what actual evidence did Lazar produce?

None at all, he cannot even show where he got his "degree", and no one knew him as a student doing his degree!

originally posted by: peter vlar
you can't "create" a stable version of 115. Once you alter the number of protons in the nucleus or alter the ratios of protons- electrons, its no longer 115. It's the ratio of protons to electrons that determine an elements stability and half life.

That's not true for nuclear stability and radioactive decay. It's the protons plus neutrons in the nucleus. Hypothetically there could be a wide variety of isotopes of element 115, with widely varying decay rates & half-lives.

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: Tangerine
On the other hand, what actual evidence did Lazar produce?

None at all, he cannot even show where he got his "degree", and no one knew him as a student doing his degree!

This is a religion. The believers are not interested in facts and never will be.

a reply to: aynock

Since so much of it didn't make sense, I wonder if that was the very purpose of the experience! As said "pure theatre". Make people believe, through strange experiences imposed on a technician, there are ET flying saucers. As described, it didn't sound like a serious project the way something of this magnitude would be run by Los Alamos of the Manhattan Project.

What if "pure theatre" was exactly the point?

a reply to: Tangerine

Well, it is completely valid that no evidence was presented (that I know of anyway) bu then; you and I (as well as any who study the subject matter seriously) must contend with the nature of shared information. We can only accept the presumption of evidence. Otherwise ALL arguments lack relevance.

For example... in the Lazar case, the gentlemen presents all his contentious allegations with the underlying paradigm that we are talking about "alien technology" (I think we can safely presume of the "War of the Worlds", "My Favorite Martian," "Independence Day," "E.T." type.)

But he never said "I captured a UFO", or I "rented one from the Air Force" or any such thing that explains the conviction that it was not perhaps inter-dimensional flotsam, a derelict something or other, or a war machine... so what evidence is there that even in that UFO presumption he is correct? While the technology he claims to have analyzed for the suits in sunglasses may be almost anything... we start by couching it in terms often ridiculed by the vox populi of media celebrities.

Considering that he was ostensibly reporting on material he had access to by virtue of clearance granted... we can't really separate the event from the same general behaviors belonging to people like Pvt Manning, Edward Snowden, and their ilk... But rather than engage in a deliberate understanding of whatever Lazar thought he knew or learned.... we were treated to a McCarthy Era-style character assassination... which I feel is a poor substitute for validating that there is in fact evidence to study.

Put differently, would you consider any evidence - no matter how intriguing - from a person you have already declared as of whatever derogatory or demeaning character? But please note, having said it, that you already made any further investigation pointless... seems like a great way to avoid any evidence... since most will not tender anything to one who is only concerned with 'killing the messenger's respectability.'

All I speak of here is the case of Lazar as we have heard it... and even then, only as I have heard it. I am interested in the potential information that could theoretically be available from it. The whole rigamarole of sophistic resignation and pointless generalizations kind makes me avoid this topic, because people seem to insist that by my stating what I think, I am trying to convince them of something.

originally posted by: Maxmars
a reply to: Tangerine

Well, it is completely valid that no evidence was presented (that I know of anyway) bu then; you and I (as well as any who study the subject matter seriously) must contend with the nature of shared information. We can only accept the presumption of evidence. Otherwise ALL arguments lack relevance.

For example... in the Lazar case, the gentlemen presents all his contentious allegations with the underlying paradigm that we are talking about "alien technology" (I think we can safely presume of the "War of the Worlds", "My Favorite Martian," "Independence Day," "E.T." type.

...
Put differently, would you consider any evidence - no matter how intriguing - from a person you have already declared as of whatever derogatory or demeaning character? But please note, having said it, that you already made any further investigation pointless... seems like a great way to avoid any evidence... since most will not tender anything to one who is only concerned with 'killing the messenger's respectability.'

All I speak of here is the case of Lazar as we have heard it... and even then, only as I have heard it. I am interested in the potential information that could theoretically be available from it. The whole rigamarole of sophistic resignation and pointless generalizations kind makes me avoid this topic, because people seem to insist that by my stating what I think, I am trying to convince them of something.

Claims/allegations are never testable evidence. Lazar has presented no evidence.

I would accept any evidence tested via the scientific method. No evidence has been presented and none tested.

originally posted by: aynock
a reply to: ladyinwaiting

"I'd like to see them continue to work and produce different isotopes of 115 because they're gonna come up with a handful of different varieties and they're gonna come up with a stable isotope, and that's what we're interested," he countered.

"It has to come from some place where it's natural, like from a super nova."

i see a contradiction in these two statements - how are scientists going to come up with a stable isotope when it can only be produced by a supernova?

Earth science can't currently create much of these super heavy element isotopes in enough quantity to be useful anyways. Maybe in the distant future. It is true though that much larger stars than our own sun can easily produce stable isotopes of super heavy elements simply by their natural fusion process. If the sun here was a lot larger/denser
it also could produce heavier ones than it is limited to now.

a reply to: mbkennel

This is the most compelling theory to me. But then, I deal (at least in my mind) in cause and effect. We know the effect... what was the perceived cause? That there really IS alien gizmo tech in human hands? That there isn't? That we should accept the establishment's knee jerk reaction to any such claims? That the danger of believing in this stuff is the risk of being alienated (pun intended) by your professional, social, or even family community?

Regardless, there is something to be learned when clusters of rational people stand around and throw stones; maybe it can be useful, maybe it can be "used" as much as the story itself might be a thing to be used.

What if Lazar was, what's that old saying, "gas lighted?" Maybe he naively accepted what he was presented - and in a fit of excited utterance blathered out - to his dismay - something that he could never prove, nor document. Schadenfreude is a common element in this kind of situation.

All of this is as much speculation as any of the other arguments. There is no denying that we are arguing with limited data. But it is humbling to see people still thinking - at least - to wonder at the story and it's evolution thus far.

a reply to: Tangerine

I'm afraid that for you, nothing short of getting a job at Los Alamos via time-travel could satisfy you. But I suspect that this would not be the satisfaction you desire anyway. No ill-meaning in that... just that you reject outright, and seem to protect what you consider physical reality. No one can pierce that save an unlikely miraculous occurrence. May I ask, do you think you would be be inclined to react by explaining why it couldn't be so, or how it could be so? There's no wrong answer really... eventually everyone tends to do both.

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite
I thought I would help some minds see things a little more clearly, I said Bob shared a lot of truth which was like I said all part of the plan to get information out for disclosure see...

However it is also still to this day also part of said plan to protect sensitive information so capable minds do not realize too much for themselves... So much greed steals from us all what is for us all...

So anyway the best way to protect the whole truth is to mix it up with just enough lies so as to open your mind yet leave you stuck with a missing link...

You see his lie was to say we had element 115 in abundance, which we do yet it is not in that state no it is another element even more secret which is broken down through particlization thus creating element 115 feeding antimatter to do what is said to be impossible...

And that's about all I can say about that...it's all about the bubble...chew on that brainiacs...

And oh Ya deny what you wish but just remember you can't handle the truth...