Jesus on the cross is a graven image and idolatry

The title of this thread is only my opinion, everything else I propose is also only my opinion, so please try not to get offended, my opinion is no greater than yours.

Exodus 20
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

God tells us not to make any graven images of him, graven literally means "of the nature of the grave", meaning death. God is saying do not make an image of death in place of his true image, which is what we are made in. The link in my signature goes into detail about that aspect of my theory.

Jesus is called the image of God. What do Christians think of when they think of the image of God? Jesus hanging on the cross dying for their sins. This is an image of death and sacrifice, something Jesus said he had no desire for.

Matthew 9
13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Jesus desired mercy and not sacrifice, he received no mercy while he was sacrificed. Jesus' sacrifice for sins seems to be the opposite of what Jesus said he desired.

Leviticus 26
"'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.

What is hung above the preacher while he is preaching? A figurine or statue of Jesus dead on the cross. This is a false image, a dead image. Having a depiction of Jesus on the cross and bowing to pray before it is idolatry according to the bible and God.

Please wake up people, Christianity is of this world, Jesus says he is not of this world. The bible represents a false image, the true image is not in a book or doctrine/ideology, it is right here right now. Please stop worshiping idols.

John 14
20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

We are all One, there is nothing else. Jesus is in you and you are in him and we are all in the Father. God is life, we are life's image.

Luke 17
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Look within yourself and you will see where the outside resides. I am within you and you are within me. When I see you you are in an image within my mind as am I in yours.

Jesus on the cross is that of death, realize that the true image is of life. Stop worshiping death, only life brings life. You are the truth, the way, and the LIFE. You are God's image, that of light.

Mark 12
33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Treating others well is more important than ALL sacrifices.

Thank you for reading.

If you read more of the old testament you'll see they had a problem with idolatry (golden calf, etc).

The prohibition is to address that, I would not read too much extra into it.

The Crucifix is for Catholics (I've never seen one in a protestant church) but I've never seen a Catholic worship one. It's a symbol of Jesus sacrifice for humanity and not an idolatrous image (unless I really try and read the translated old testament a very certain way).

a reply to: Elton

Catholicism is what spawned the rest of the denominations though. They are all offshoots one way or another of Roman Catholicism. Rome wasn't a very trustworthy ruling class and they are the biggest reason for Christianity being what it is today in my opinion.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Graven: As an adjective, this means sculpted, carved... That is what is meant by the word in the Bible... in example, the golden calf that the Israelites made in the desert while they were being led by Moses from Egypt.

I'm pretty sure idolatry is prohibited, which even includes statues of Jesus, crosses and the like. And truly I don't need a cross in my house to represent my faith, I have the faith itself.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I've only ever seen crosses in Protestant churches and not a Crucifix. That is why I made the distinction, obviously if Protestants don't have crucifixes then they are not worshiping them.

EDIT: And you are correct that Catholicism spawned the Protestant religions, but I believe they started generally as a rejection of Catholic doctrines and beliefs that they did not agree with (so maybe they didn't like the Crucifix as well?)

This thread is more about the image people think of when they think of God's image, which is Jesus on the cross, not about crucifixes in churches. I probably should have made that more clear.

The image that pops into the head is of sacrifice and death, hence graven image.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Ohh, OK.

Well then I think that thinking of God or Jesus on the cross is in no way idolatry or a graven image. Again I believe the verse you quoted in OP was directed specifically at idolatry and worshiping figurines and not a restriction of thinking about what God or Jesus looks like.

But I think we just interpret the verse much differently.

in my opinion, statues of Jesus, Mary, the Apostles, the Cross, all of these things are Idols.
the Pope being classed as God or Christ on Earth, or even being "the voice of / having the authority of God or Christ on Earth" is Blasphemy.

But who am I but a Man, fallible and prone to err.

I could be wrong, so I come to places like this in hope of illumination, of objective but intelligent discussion, I hope it gets me closer to the Truth, or A Truth.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Love your threads and posts as they make one to consider ideas one does not normally dwell on....

I went to Catholic High School for three years and always have had problems with all the images they use in church and out of. I have friends that make posts in FB that concerns me as they appear to be idols.... with prayers attached, almost like Gods before God to be worshiped.

After reading this one I thought of someone I enjoyed and still miss....

Mr. Bill Hicks idea on the Cross worn around the neck....





SnF

I know people who pray for cars a new house and wining lottery.
Thats idolatry, self before others.

Jesus on the cross is a reminder that God put others first. A reminder that He asked us to remember in communion, bread and wine, fellowship.

The carved image is a little different, its idolatry if worshiped.
dont think its a big issue if its just a reminder, can be tricky but its a personal thing

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Look within yourself and you will see where the outside resides. I am within you and you are within me. When I see you you are in an image within my mind as am I in yours.

This is also idolatry and not truth.You are not within me and I most certainly not in you those are “your” image imaginations of your mind which are just as incorrect as the the one Christians have of their Jesus.

Graven does not just mean made out of matter.A graven image is an idol of the mind.The matter some people form is just a physical manifestation of what exists in their mind.Christians don’t just believe in a man Jesus who did such and such things they believe he actually lives inside of them just as you do.That is completely false.Yahoshua never said anything like that because it’s unreasonable.

One of the most distorted doctrines of man is that when Yahoshua said to some pharisee Jews who asked him where the kingdom of God was he said…”it is neither here nor there(it’s not a place or In..ANY place) it comes WITHOUT observation (the perception of belief) it is in your midst”.

The last phrase is where the new religious mysticism is formed.It has a multitude of variations but the base premise is the kingdom of God is INSIDE of you yet that isn’t what Yahoshua said at all.He surely wasn’t saying that to the pharisees Jews who had no knowledge(communion) with the creator God at all or they wouldn’t have asked such a ridiculous question.

First the Kingdom of the heavens and the Kingdom of the creator God is not the same thing.The heavens is a persons mind.That is where they live.Everything is perceived by observation through the mind(the heavens).However what is perceived through the mind is belief in faith.It is an observation nothing more.A mind that believes though faith cannot and isn’t in the state of the “kingdom” of the creator God.The creator God can only be known not believed.That is why Yahoshua said the kingdom of God comes without observation. Yahoshua never said or did anything in belief through faith he only knew.The carnal mind of man(their heavens) can only believe through faith in their Belief System religion.The other most twiste scriptures related to this is when Yahoshua again told some Jews that “believed” in him.

“If(when) you continue in my word (life) you will truly be my disciple THEN you will KNOW the truth and THEN the truth will make you free.”

This is the definitive statement of Yahoshua that “knowing” the truth is what makes a person free just as he already was.What are they free from?..their belief in faith of their Belief System religion.The rest of the scripture following this discourse with the Jews that believed in him was to how religion is not knowing the creator God the father at all.Yahoshua told these Jews who believed Abraham was their father that their father was demon/devil(not satan btw).A demon is a channel which something moves through.It is the perception through observation of the belief of faith in a Belief System religion that is not truth at all..it is the father of lies.That is an idol of the mind a graven image formed in the imaginations of man.

The creator God did not make mankind in his image as a “thing”as many believe.The creator God is not a man nor did they make a “graven image” imagination of falsity . ALL of creation was made by and through the creator Gods “mind”/imagination which is “christ” ..the anointing(the source of power of everything) .Not a guy named Jesus Christ with such and such hair and eyes etc etc…

Religion(and not just Christianity) has cherry picked scriptures and made up the doctrines of men.The best bet to not believe a lie is to not believe anything you think your know about the creator God because it has all been funneled through the Belief System by perception through observation which of course is impossible when it is observed.

Back to Yahoshuas statement of the Kingdom of the creator God is in your midst.He made that statement to the pharisees who were expecting an earthly kingdom with the Mashiach as King and them as the henchmen.Yahoshua was stating you couldn’t be more wrong your “belief” is the proof because you are observing your religion.

Yahoshua was stating “I am IN the Kingdom of the creator God right now” and it is IN your midst yet you cannot see it(know it) with your religious observation.He meant the same thing when he said my Kingdom is not of this realm”world”.The religious concept of all these things are completely twisted.The Jews saw a King like King David who ruled over people and was an imperialist who conquered other kingdoms when the reality was David was a blood thirsty opportunist. He had his moments of lucidity but he was not a good person in the least.They believed their Mashiach would rule the WORLD!!

Yahoshua was talking of a completely different kind of King and kingdoms.A king is a ruler over a kingdom.The kingdom of your heavens is not a place it is a state of being of your mind where a King(power of authority) rules and in this case(and the only true case) the Kingdom of the creator God.Yahoshua continually said I do nothing of my own accord I only do what I see and hear the father (the creator God) says and does.

Yahoshua was saying to them everything I do is because I am IN the Kingdom of the creator God.I’m sure many would interpret that as some metaphysical mystic magic however Yahoshua was saying it as this is what “LIFE” is…plain and simple…no fanfare hoopla.Not the foolishness of your religion in your heavens.That is ruled through satan..the adversary. Satan is not some powerful(2nd only to God..but seemingly much more powerful for all the things attributed to them) evil spiritual being fighting a war for your soul with the creator God.The only war is between the ears of man in their mind.

It is mans nature of their religious carnal mind that is in enmity to the creator God therefore it cannot enter into the Kingdom of the creator God at all by its observations.Yahoshua only made practical statements yet they flew a million light years over their heads.Mankind is striving to live a life that is not truth because their perception(belief) is through observation(faith) of their Belief System religion.The creator God is the author of life and all life was created by and through them.In the physical realm man cannot perceive that life (or attain it) through the Belief System religion.Again that is the graven image that is mankinds vain imagination.

Fortunately ALL of mankind will come to “know” the creator God and enter into the Kingdom of the creator God IN their heavens.THAT is life that is infinite it will not die because it cannot die.That is the crux of what Yahoshua and the disciples proclaimed by statement.It has ZERO to do with any religion in any form including mysticism.

I don't think J.C. would want his followers to dwell on his death, but the life he offers. A graven image of Christ on the cross would focus on his death. I personally believe what you have put forth and don't have or wear a cross. When I think of Jesus, it isn't about his death but his teaching while alive.

John 14:9-11

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

An image of Jesus is the image of the Father. This is why Christians can worship images of Jesus - he is the way, the truth, and the life.

Actually John Chapter 14 is just an excellent chapter as a whole. I would encourage everyone here to read the whole thing.

In order for something to be idolatrous, it has to be more important than God. So is the cross more important than God? Is the image of Christ more important than God? Do you worship it as God?

And I never was in a church that had an image of a crucifix in it aside from a Catholic one. Most have a cross and images of Christ. The only time you really ever see images of the crucifixion is around Easter.

That being said, focusing on the mental image of a cross can be helpful for me to center my mind when I begin prayer the same way that opening prayer with a familiar prayer does. It does not mean that I am "worshiping" that image. It only means that I am using it to calm all the other clutter out of my mind in preparation to focus on God.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

A symbol is a symbol is a symbol. It makes no difference what area of human life you wish to entertain, we are surround by symbols that represent a whole plethora of implied information. A cross, a flag, an old piece of paper scrawled upon by a couple dozens men, a treaty, a marriage certificate, a death notice, a diploma, etc.

Most of those symbols require an understanding of some sort into what they mean. Some require a binding and blinding faith in their meaning and t hat can be dangerous. If we can understand the superficiality of those symbols and see the true meanings behind some of them, then we have escaped their complete capture and better know the parameters of what is involved.

"I would never want to be a member of a group whose symbol was a guy nailed to two pieces of wood."

-George Carlin

Christians don't worship the image they worship the man. The cross is just a reminder of jesuses suffering. reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

originally posted by: Elton
a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Ohh, OK.

Well then I think that thinking of God or Jesus on the cross is in no way idolatry or a graven image. Again I believe the verse you quoted in OP was directed specifically at idolatry and worshiping figurines and not a restriction of thinking about what God or Jesus looks like.

But I think we just interpret the verse much differently.

It would have to do with intent, I guess. I agree with you, recalling my Catechism from way back, that the crucifix is intended to be a reminder of the sacrifice and not "worshiped" an thus would not fall under the aforementioned scripture.

Besides, if one were to take that scripture literally, then one should not have any pictures or statues or anything like that at all, yes?

How true. I have a marriage license but it's the years we've spent together compromising and giving and loving and living that make up a marriage. Not a piece of paper.


a reply to: Aliensun