The Paganism of Christianity

Quote: "Is my Old Testament a load of crap because of the
New Testament. Can I throw it out as a superceded item of my library."

I believe in the Gospels - I think that the rest of the Bible is Unnecessary Garbage. I believe that
CHRIST is a GOD! Would you like to call me a Pagan Heretic now?

Quote: "Didn't think things were allowed to be changed so I would of thought if the new testament contradicted anything in the old it would be classed as Gnostic, Heresy or something."

Perhaps this is why "Dogmatic Religion" is no longer Synonymous with "Spirituality"!!!

Quote: "the Gnostic idea of humans being 'evil' matter that has shards of holy 'light' or souls trapped in them and that have to be freed from the material in, ultimately death."

No, not necessarily in Death! Gnostics believe that ALL MATERIAL is inherently Evil - but it is a Part of the Universe (both Good & Evil exist like Ying & Yang or
Material & Spirit/Consciousness/Energy - you can not have one with out the Other) - so we simply just have to Deal with it! As a matter of Fact Gnostics have developed a System to deal with it!

[edit on 23-12-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Would you like to call me a Pagan Heretic now?

Not particularly, wouldn't know the cirteria you'd need to be one

Do you get a bumper sticker with that one, or just a lapel pin

[edit on 23/12/2004 by Bondi]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by riley
TV is good for numbing the brain.

I don't know if this counteracts my statement or verifies it, but my spouse would agree. I agree reflection is good now and then, but can turn to depression when alone all the time.

TV is a distraction from isolation.. moderation in both I guess.

Pride - The Bible does build confidence too, but warns of the problems with excess.

I was pushed down that path.. it didn't [for myself and others] build confidence. Whats the point for instance.. in making a kid go to confession once a week? I used to say I had nothing to confess.. then get told I was lieing and therefore sinning.. or was proud.. damned either way. This type of thing does not build confidence.. it builds shame. It's not healthy to have people afraid to live life because they're afraid of 'sinning'.. "Did I send myself to hell today? I killed a spider.. was that a sin? I'll have to double check with my bible again" Do you know what I mean? A 'guide' I can understand.. but this myth where everyone is deemed inherently evil.. just feels wrong.

Vanity - God has made us and to say that were 'ugly' is to deny his creation. On the other hand, is an entirely new set of fingers. If we fill our hearts with love for ourselves, how can we then have room for God and other people?

Admiring only outer beauty is not love anyway.. and if that is all someone values then they can't see the inner in themselves or others. There is nothing wrong with self love.. it's just a trait of a well adjusted person and is not the same thing as selfishness or being shallow.

Cheating - the sin is disrespect I think. The physical act is not the issue, it's the deception and selfishness that's the reason for the sin.

True.. also.. if someone cheats- not out of just lust but because they've fallen out of love with someone and in love with someone else.. I think they should face it rather than pretending everythings alright. No point people staying together if they don't love eachother.

James 1:2 "Consider it pure joy my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops persrverance. Perserverance must finish its work that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything."

It is refreshing to see someone post a quote from the bible that is positive not negative.

Originally posted by riley
Everyone insinctively knows that to deliberately hurt someone for example is wrong..

Who do you think is reponsible for this 'programming'?

Immediately a who? Alright.. it'd be mother nature. We are a co-dependant, social species.. we rely on eachother to survive.. but really.. does it really matter who or what programmed us? We have the programing already.. why do we need doctrine to cloud and confuse this 'god given' or natural intinct?

[edit on 23-12-2004 by riley]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
No I am Not - but I see plenty of so-called American "Christians" who are!

Fair enough. I'm not one of them though.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
I too Believe in the GOSPELS - but don't forget that the "Bible" that most Americans use is the
"King James" (which many believe is the LITERAL Word of GOD BTW - even though it was written by MEN) - & in that book the OLD Testament Always comes before the NEW Testament! Have you ever tried reading the "Bible" BACKWARDS - it is FUN! Hebrew is Written & Read backwards after all - its quite Illuminating!

I have read some books in reverse or random order. Right now I'm doing the same with The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy since it talks about reverse engineering in Mostly Harmless. I look forward to finishing Mostly Harmless then reading the previous book and so on. It is definately a new perspective. I hope you don't mean literally reading word for word backwards since I do not have the degree of intelligence to comprehend doing so.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Quote: "Science says when we die, we cease to exist."

I beg to differ! What is the Difference between Life & Death?

Science defines biological life and death. Breathing, brain function, consumption of food, reproduction, etc.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Human Beings are Not Inanimate Objects! This is Science - we are Sentient Beings!

What does 'sentient being' mean to science? Perhaps a definition would help but I don't see a way of determine sentience. From this list, what's sentient?: cow, virus, sponge, earthworm, baby.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Our Brain is a Container for our Mind/Consciousness - which we Develop over our Lives in Space/Time as we Learn & Grow. We need to Eat to Survive because everything works with ENERGY! LIFE IS ENERGY - CONCIOUSNESS IS ENERGY! And as we know - "Energy can neither be Created Nor Destroyed"!

Life is energy? Very poetic, but doesn't sound scientific. How is electricity alive?

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
I suggest that you look into Karma & Re-Incarnation!

I doubt I'd find either in a scientific textbook. You've gone religious on me on this one

Originally posted by riley

Pride - The Bible does build confidence too, but warns of the problems with excess.

I was pushed down that path..

Yeah, I think that's problem #1. You can't make people believe anything. It something you'd have to be willing to seek out on your own.

Originally posted by riley
it didn't [for myself and others] build confidence. Whats the point for instance.. in making a kid go to confession once a week?

I don't know. Confess when you sin. It may be a catholic thing in which case I don't have the background to talk about it.

Originally posted by riley
I used to say I had nothing to confess.. then get told I was lieing and therefore sinning.. or was proud.. damned either way.

Most people don't realize, but you can sin in your thoughts even though you don't carry out action. It's not as prominent, but something to be aware of. Ever get angry at someone and wish them harm or to suffer? I have, I hate those thoughts and am trying to steer clear of any such.

Originally posted by riley
This type of thing does not build confidence.. it builds shame. It's not healthy to have people afraid to live life because they're afraid of 'sinning'..

You're absolutely right. Christians however, know they are going to Heaven because their sins are forgiven. This however does not give a Christian the right to sin because you're not put God to the test.

Originally posted by riley
"Did I send myself to hell today? I killed a spider.. was that a sin? I'll have to double check with my bible again" Do you know what I mean? A 'guide' I can understand.. but this myth where everyone is deemed inherently evil.. just feels wrong.

Do you think people are inherently good? Given infinite money, do you think it's man's nature to give it to charity? Given infinite power, do you think man would be nice to their fellow man? A good illustration is parenting. Parenting opens one's eyes about the nature of people because you see the little one doing things they know is wrong out of anger, vengence, greed, etc. This is behavior that needs to be corrected.

Originally posted by riley
Admiring only outer beauty is not love anyway.. and if that is all someone values then they can't see the inner in themselves or others. There is nothing wrong with self love.. it's just a trait of a well adjusted person and is not the same thing as selfishness or being shallow.

I can agree with that.

Originally posted by riley

Cheating - the sin is disrespect I think. The physical act is not the issue, it's the deception and selfishness that's the reason for the sin.

True.. also.. if someone cheats- not out of just lust but because they've fallen out of love with someone and in love with someone else.. I think they should face it rather than pretending everythings alright. No point people staying together if they don't love eachother.

I agree the two should communicate. I don't believe however that either party has the right to break the contract of marriage. Yes, it is a vow, contract, commitment and I'm sorry if the couple didn't understand this when they got married. They need to work through it because they got together at some point out of love. I've had first-hand experience in this catagory and can tell you it's a tough pill to swallow, but turned out to be the best medicine.

Originally posted by riley
It is refreshing to see someone post a quote from the bible that is positive not negative.

It's chock full of positive quotes. Like Proverbs. It wasn't mean to be a book to beat people over the head with. Problem is people (like in the Old Testament) view it as nothing but law. The gospels, the good news Jesus was here for, was all about how to see it correctly.

Originally posted by riley
Immediately a who? Alright.. it'd be mother nature. We are a co-dependant, social species.. we rely on eachother to survive.. but really.. does it really matter who or what programmed us? We have the programing already.. why do we need doctrine to cloud and confuse this 'god given' or natural intinct?
[edit on 23-12-2004 by riley]

A fair answer, but who is 'mother nature'? Some deity no doubt since science cannot establish this definition. Instinct has a purpose - survival. Above instinct is thought. I'd rather use rational thought than instinct. We slip into instinct a lot even when our survival does not depend on it and this is when we need direction. Does your body rule your mind? If so, there are consequences when it isn't dependent on survival. Or does your mind rule your body? In that case, you have the ability to control whatever it does. Just some thoughts, not bashing beliefs.

[edit on 23-12-2004 by saint4God]

Quote: "I hope you don't mean literally reading word for word backwards since I do not have the degree of intelligence to comprehend doing so."

No Silly! I meant reading the last chapter (Revelations) First & so forth Until you get to Genesis Last! Although Hebrew is indeed Written & Read from Right to Left (like Oriental Languages) - English on the other hand is Obvious Written & Read Left to Right! I suggest that you only do this is you have free time on your hands as the Bible get Boring Fast!

Quote: "How is electricity alive?"

Again you are being silly! How do you tell when a HUMAN is Alive or Dead is what I meant!

Quote: "From this list, what's sentient?: cow, virus, sponge, earthworm, baby."

A Virus & Sponge no. A Cow (Mammal) yes. A Baby Yes.
Humans have 6 Sensory Functions = Sentience.

I suggest that you look into Karma & Re-Incarnation!

Quote: "I doubt I'd find either in a scientific textbook."

Yes even though "Karma" is a Buddhist term - it is quite Simple the Scientific Law of Cause & Effect!

If your Mind/Consciousness or to get Religious Soul/Spirit is a non Tangible Entity is it possible that Death is merely the separation of this from your Material Body? If so is Re-Incarnation not possible? Reasonable Concept no?


[edit on 23-12-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Quote: "If you think about it, all Christians are Jews...

Jews that have embraced Jesus as the Messiah are Christians.

"Jews" still await their messiah.

Muslims derive their lineage from Abraham, as do Jews.

We are all Jews, all the Chosen people of god, who are all that believe, regardless of race...

We all are really one really big family that doesn't get along....

I think the underlying point of this whole post was for one person to try to feel better about their beliefs, or lack their of. It's pretty easy to see how we got here when you read the post. All the squabbling, all the details and semantics. They mean nothing... "

Yes I agree. Jesus doesn't care what Race or Gender or Age you are! Jew or Gentile - if you accept Jesus Christ into your Heart
(Circumcision of the Heart) you are a Christian!

The problem that I see is that all of this "Squabbling over Semantics" is leading to WAR! WAR leads to Death & Pain & Suffering! To inflict these things is Un-Christian! I know that we have to fight these Terrorists - but I thing that Both sides are using Race & Religion as a Mask & an Excuse. I think that "Americans Christians" need to look at themselves in the Mirror & sincerely ask themselves "What Causes Global Terrorism"?

Originally posted by shmick25
I know witch doctors have some amazing powers. (not to mention helping the local villages) Can they to become a saint?

No, a saint needs to believe in God and accept Jesus as saviour and teacher according to what I've read in the Bible. Don't know where the 3 miracles and such came from. Sorry to those who thought I was a saint by Roman Catholic criteria.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
No Silly! I meant reading the last chapter (Revelations) First & so forth Until you get to Genesis Last! Although Hebrew is indeed Written & Read from Right to Left (like Oriental Languages) - English on the other hand is Obvious Written & Read Left to Right! I suggest that you only do this is you have free time on your hands as the Bible get Boring Fast!

An interesting approach. I don't know if I could do it. It may be worth looking into though. True that the Bible in some parts can get boring fast since it's hard to see the application of everything as it fits into your life at that very moment...which is why I like to use it as a reference guide or to hear someone who is Christian apply a passage that would help my situation.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Quote: "How is electricity alive?"

Again you are being silly! How do you tell when a HUMAN is Alive or Dead is what I meant!

Okay. I think we had different definitions of energy.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Quote: "From this list, what's sentient?: cow, virus, sponge, earthworm, baby."

A Virus & Sponge no. A Cow (Mammal) yes. A Baby Yes.
Humans have 6 Sensory Functions = Sentience.

This is tricky. A virus can reproduce, has a need for survival. A sponge though unicellular carries out a function of reproduction. Why are these things not sentient?

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
I suggest that you look into Karma & Re-Incarnation!

Quote: "I doubt I'd find either in a scientific textbook."

Yes even though "Karma" is a Buddhist term - it is quite Simple the Scientific Law of Cause & Effect!

Thoughout my studies of Science, Karma has never been brought up. Newton's third law of action and reaction does not state anything about Karma. What science book am I not reading?

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
If your Mind/Consciousness or to get Religious Soul/Spirit is a non Tangible Entity is it possible that Death is merely the separation of this from your Material Body?

I can accept that.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
If so is Re-Incarnation not possible?

Why must one re-incarnate? I don't understand the motivation or purpose.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Reasonable Concept no?

I'm not saying it's unreasonable since I don't understand the purpose for it.

Originally posted by saint4God
I don't know. Confess when you sin. It may be a catholic thing in which case I don't have the background to talk about it.

If I do something that I feel remource for.. I try and rectify the situation.. telling a priest about it and saying hail Mary's doesn't relieve me of responsibility [but it's an out for some].

Most people don't realize, but you can sin in your thoughts even though you don't carry out action.

So people have to worry about going to hell because of their natural thoughts? That seems unrealistic. Is masturbating a sin still? Is thinking about masturbating a sin?

It's not as prominent, but something to be aware of. Ever get angry at someone and wish them harm or to suffer? I have, I hate those thoughts and am trying to steer clear of any such.

Yes.. I try not to have negative thoughts.. because it's a waste of energy and can actually lead to depression if it becomes habit.. another rational reason. If someone has hurt me they should rectify it.. I shouldn't just cop it sweet. Rather than have vengeful thoughts I'd rather have the situation addressed and make them aware of what they have done. Once that happens.. I'd have no need for vengeful thoughts that would otherwise fester.

Do you think people are inherently good? Given infinite money, do you think it's man's nature to give it to charity? Given infinite power, do you think man would be nice to their fellow man?

I think people are capable of either.. depends which sides are nurtured.

A good illustration is parenting. Parenting opens one's eyes about the nature of people because you see the little one doing things they know is wrong out of anger, vengence, greed, etc. This is behavior that needs to be corrected.

The OT teaches 'eye for an eye'.
The new is 'turn the other cheek'.. both testimants cater to the good and bad so one can turn a page any time a rule isn't convenient.. the parenting seems to contradict itself so it can't really correct behaviour as it condones some.
Vengeful god.. jealous god.. all forgiving god etc.

I agree the two should communicate. I don't believe however that either party has the right to break the contract of marriage.

I really can't agree with that.. without exeptions it's dangerous. If someone is being beat up and emotionally abused constantly he/she shouldn't be obliged to stay because the bible says so.. in that case the bible is not acting in their best interests.. and if a spouse is cheating the other shouldn't have to put up with it.

Yes, it is a vow, contract, commitment and I'm sorry if the couple didn't understand this when they got married.

The act of betrayal already breaks the marriage contract anyway.. it could possible turn marriage into just a piece of paper- and if that is the case.. what is it worth?

They need to work through it because they got together at some point out of love. I've had first-hand experience in this catagory and can tell you it's a tough pill to swallow, but turned out to be the best medicine.

I'm glad that you were able to work through it but it wouldn't work for everybody.. personally.. I doubt I'd get married in the first place as I'd have to be sure it would last.. and if I was going to spend a life time with someone I can do that without a contract to make them stay. In regards to others.. not my problem. So long as both parties are happy.

A fair answer, but who is 'mother nature'? Some deity no doubt since science cannot establish this definition.

Not a deity.. I could have said just humans developed things like compassion and coperation through evolution but the most basic of species are also co-dependent.. which is seen in science. It's a trait that unites all life.

including viruses and sponges. .

Instinct has a purpose - survival. Above instinct is thought. I'd rather use rational thought than instinct.

I try and use both.. they have equal value to me. If someone says and does all the right things- yet a gut intinct/intuition says their charactor is not good and it is an act.. I bloody well listen to it! This abilty is underated and has not been made obsolete.
Thought.. since we are the most evolved mentally.. it has meant we have had to try and find a balance with our minds and animal intinct [animal instinct isn't always bad].

We slip into instinct a lot even when our survival does not depend on it and this is when we need direction.

I always think my own way out of things if I get lost.

Does your body rule your mind? If so, there are consequences when it isn't dependent on survival. Or does your mind rule your body?

My mind always has the final say.. but my instinct is always considered.. it has served me well.

In regards to khama- it's a basic spiritual law. Causality. What energy you put out comes back.. and it's a law of science. Every action has a reaction.. this is a constant of the universe.. it wouldn't make sense for us to be excempt from it.

Just some thoughts, not bashing beliefs.

No probs.. BTW Merry Christmas.

Two quick clarifications if I may.

1. Gnostics believe we are living in hell. They don't exactly believe that everything in the wide unexplored universe is evil. I think they believe that we are the offspring of the devil, or at least living in his territory.

2. The new testament is more of a refined control mechanism than the OT. The OT was all about fear, the new was all about love, for another, not yourself note. Also, when jesus said turn the other cheek, he was talking about jews. He was speaking to a group of arabs and saying that if a jew did them wrong, beat them, or stole from them, they should just ignore the insult. This turn the other cheek bit is often misinterpreted. Also, King James was a big turd, and you shouldn't waste any time with his turdish book. Look for versions predating the rape of allegory.

Quote: "Why are these things not Sentient?"

Because Sentience is another word for Perception! What do you use to Perceive? Your Eyes - Your Ears - Your Nose - Your Tongue - Your Skin & Your Mind!

Quote: "Newton's Third Law of Action and Reaction does not state anything about Karma."

That is because Newton was not a Buddhist - he was a Scientist. I have found however that Buddhism is a VERY Scientific Religion! I suggest that you study the BUDDHA-DHARMA!

Quote: "Why must one Re-Incarnate? I don't understand the motivation or purpose.

Quote: Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Reasonable Concept no?

I'm not saying it's unreasonable since I don't understand the purpose for it."

You should ask GOD/Universe Yourself - I am Not GOD.


May I just add to all on ATS - MERRY CHRIST-MASS & a Happy New Year!

Quote: "Thou shalt Sanctify it with clean hands and a Pure Heart. Wherefore we are greatly deceived if we imagine that any one can now Sanctify that day which God has made Holy without having a Heart Pure in all things."

-The Epistle of Barnabas

Originally posted by Croat56

The Devil was actually an angel named Lucifer...

The problem with that statement is that "Lucifer" is not a Hebraic name, it is a Latin name meaning "Light-Bringer". Specifically it is the name of the Roman God who was the deification of the Morning Star (AKA Venus), which precedes the rising of the sun at Winter Solstice. The name mentioned in Isaiah is Helel (Babylonian god of the Morning Star, son of Shahar, god of the Dawn). The name Helel was not used in Judaic theology until and after the occurance of the Babylonian Captivity. At which point Helel was not connected with "Satan" (i.e., Adversary or Enemy). The original leaders of the Revolt in Heaven, as stated in the Tanakh, were "Samhazai" (Heaven-seizer) and Azazel (Strength of God)

en.wikipedia.org...