(Part 2 with Map) The Phoenix Lights - Laying To Rest The Myth

This is a follow-up to my previous thread to address some concerns regarding the witnesses and the Vee formation of lights. Part one can be found here:

The Phoenix Lights - Laying To Rest The Myth (Part 1)

The Witnesses

It's well-known that some witnesses saw a large black triangle, while others saw individual lights and/or planes in a vee formation. I have added some of those witnesses to a map below to get an idea of where people were located and what they saw.

In the map below, the green circles represent those witnesses who saw planes or individual lights with stars between them. And the black circles represent those witnesses who claim to have seen a large black triangle that blocked out the stars:




As can be seen on the map, the two varying descriptions overlap. Indicating one vee formation of lights, and differing descriptions of what those lights were.


Let's take a closer look at a few of these witness accounts:

Alan Morey, a MUFON Field Investigator, and his friend Steve, a Pan Am 727 airliner pilot had this to say:

“We were on my patio facing due North at 8:30 pm. We had binoculars and had been watching planes land. We saw a cluster of lights coming from the direction of the comet and moving independently. Extremely bright lights pale orange in color.

Through the binoculars we could see five independent objects. We knew they were separate because we could see stars between them. They were in a delta wing configuration headed south. The whole array went over my home. We could hear nothing as they disappeared over South Mountain.

My personal view is that it was a military stealth exercise from Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada or Holloman Air Force Base in California.”

Now, over the same city (Phoenix) at nearly the same time:

Former Arizona Governor Fife Symington had this to say:

“I saw a craft…this large sort of delta-shaped, wedge-shaped craft moved silently over the valley, over Squaw Peak, dramatically large, very distinctive leading edge with some enormous lights. And it just went on down to the Southeast Valley…

It was definitely not an airplane…I think it was from another world…It was enormous…the lights over Phoenix was a very compelling, dramatic event seen by so many people that you can’t just blow that off and say everybody in Phoenix was hallucinating.”

Now a little further south of Phoenix near Casa Grande, Arizona:

Dr. Bradley Evans and family:

“I had no sense at all that this was a solid object. I could see background stars between the lights. In an instant the lights were directly overhead (the car’s moon roof was open). While our car was traveling at about 63 miles per hour, and the lights apparently moving south and east, they seemed to hold directly overhead for about five to 10 minutes, still holding formation.

We could hear no aircraft engine noise whatsoever. I thought this was odd since the lights seemed to be at about 1800 feet. I could see stars immediately around the lights and within the formation itself. Not one vehicle ever pulled to the side of the highway to watch, including ourselves! And I had no desire at all to take any pictures."

Also near Casa Grande, Arizona:

Stacey Roads and family:

“The object was huge, an immense black shape. It came over the freeway, using I-10 as a map of some sort. We were under its shadow for over two minutes and we were traveling 80 miles per hour in the opposite direction.

It was a huge triangular metal mass, with three lights far apart, and seams of metal on the underside. It was only a few thousand feet off the ground and this thing blotted out the stars. This thing was so big you could land planes on it. I could have held open a newspaper to the sky and not been able to block out the object.

Like in the movie Independence Day, that’s how big the thing was. I couldn’t focus my camera to fit it all in, so I didn’t get a shot of it. It was headed for Tucson. All five of us are in agreement the thing was not from this planet.”

Here we have two separate witnesses in Phoenix seeing the same vee formation, but giving two separate accounts of what they saw. Also a little further south, again we have two separate witnesses near Casa Grande seeing the same vee formation, yet giving two separate accounts.

It has been scientifically proven that witness testimony is unreliable. So much so, that of the convictions that have been overturned thus far, 73% of them were due to faulty witness testimony. That is a very high number of faulty witnesses that used to be relied upon for convictions.

Out of all witness testimony, every single witness who used binoculars or telescope, could clearly see that the vee formation of lights were individual lights, and/or planes. There is no known witness who claimed to have seen a solid large object, and viewed it through binoculars. There is also no known photos or videos of the alleged solid large object. Therefore, there is no proof what-so-ever that a single, large solid object flew around the state of Arizona on that night.

If there had been more than one vee formation, i.e. a large craft, and a separate vee formation of planes, then witnesses would have commented that there were two vee's flying around.

Conclusion on Witness Accounts

The faulty witnesses statements, along with the Illusory Contours phenomena explained in Part 1, we can dismiss those witnesses who claimed to have seen a single, solid object that blocked out the stars, and conclude that the lights were a formation of planes and nothing more.

No Sound

It has been reported that the formation of aircraft were flying between 10,000 and 19,000 feet. Most people will not hear those aircraft that high in the sky.

Usually, you would have to be out of city limits, away from all ground noise to be able to hear aircraft noise that many miles up.

Not Visible on Radar

Martin Hardy, manager of Sky Harbor (Phoenix) Air Traffic Control has stated that the lights/object(s) did not show up on radar. Sky Harbor's radar only goes up to 3000 feet. If the planes were flying at 10,000 to 19,000 feet as reported by other pilots, then they would have been far above Sky Harbor's radar range.

Albuquerque regional radar station would have been able to track the object(s), but radar data is destroyed after eleven days. Since nobody requested the radar data within that time, it was destroyed forever.

Final Conclusion

Everything presented proves that military exercises involving planes were going on the night of March 13, 1997. And that the vee formation of lights were aircraft heading from near Las Vegas, Nevada, to Davis-Monthan Air Force base in Tuscon, using the interstate as a flight marker.

The two differing witness reports can't both be correct. All available data and evidence proves which one is correct: a vee formation of planes. Those who saw a solid single object were mistaken and incorrect, plain and simple.

a reply to: _BoneZ_

The two differing witness reports can't both be correct.

What makes you think that? Seems to me that the Air Force could have sent out those planes after the actual event. As I mentioned in your 1st thread, if the real explanation was this mundane then the local government should have had answers very quickly and they shouldn't have reacted the way they did.

Awesome post and work, I expect it to be ignored. Just not by me. This is the stuff that brought me to ATS originally.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder
The reports of the single large object and the separate aircraft are coincident. In time and location.
Above the highway at about 8:30.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: _BoneZ_

The two differing witness reports can't both be correct.

What makes you think that? Seems to me that the Air Force could have sent out those planes after the actual event. As I mentioned in your 1st thread, if the real explanation was this mundane then the local government should have had answers very quickly and they shouldn't have reacted the way they did.

Why would they talk about stealth military exercises?

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: ChaoticOrder
The reports of the single large object and the separate aircraft are coincident. In time and location.
Above the highway at about 8:30.

The aircraft could have flown along the same path and I doubt it's possible to say with certainty at exactly what time each of these witnesses saw the triangular formation. The two events could have been a few minutes apart and it would be very hard to tell them apart from witness reports.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

I doubt it's possible to say with certainty at exactly what time each of these witnesses saw the triangular formation.

Those that provide a time are quite specific.

Seems to me that the Air Force could have sent out those planes after the actual event.

Seems to me you are reaching.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
Why would they talk about stealth military exercises?

Because it's not exactly stealth when thousands of people see it. And it's a better explanation than bringing out a guy in an alien suit and saying they found the culprit. All they had to say right from the beginning was that it was an air force operation but they didn't do that and even the governor himself ended up saying he thought it was an alien craft. It just doesn't add up any way you look at it.

a reply to: Phage

Those that provide a time are quite specific.

So now the witnesses are reliable enough to give times down to the exact minute but not reliable enough to say what they saw with their own eyes?

Seems to me you are reaching.

Perhaps.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

So now the witnesses are reliable enough to give times down to the exact minute but not reliable enough to say what they saw with their own eyes?

Exact minute, no, not necessarily. But reliable enough to say what they think they saw. But those who were better equipped say they saw something quite different. Seems odd that people using binoculars did not see a massive object obscuring the stars. In particular since the witnesses who described an enormous object described it as moving slowly across the sky.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Seems odd that people using binoculars did not see a massive object obscuring the stars.

I will concede that is a pretty strong piece of evidence backing the OP's conclusion, but it seems to be the OP has used a rather limited set of witness reports considering that thousands of people saw this event. I'm not saying he cherry picked these witness reports but a different picture may emerge if we analyzed a larger number of reports.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder
Go for it!

your reasoning for evidence is pretty good, exept ufo's are also know to change mid air....
and a star blocking triangle is a star blocking triangle...... whatever.... hope to see you
use your reasoning skills the other way some time..... try thinking both ways first...

occams razor applies often.

and indeed there were MANY sightings... but they ALL saw sometinh unexplaineble in the SKY right?
better lcuk next time


they probably started shooting them things down since then... finding out it was not the russians...
but a giant treasure trove of new technology for the upperhand om like... say... russia...
its not like there are isolated groups of people living in underground bases that have technology
thats 50 years ahead of the mainstream science now is it?

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
The two events could have been a few minutes apart and it would be very hard to tell them apart from witness reports.

No they couldn't have happened within a few minutes (or more) apart. People didn't hurry up and run outside to view the alleged black triangle, then hurry up and run back inside. Many people were already outside looking at the comet or doing other outside activities.

And since people wouldn't have hurried up and ran back inside after their sighting, someone would've still been outside to see a second triangle formation of lights, and just one or a few witness accounts would have reflected that.


I appreciate that people are grasping at as many straws as possible to come up with reasons as to why some witnesses think they saw a large black triangle. But there's no evidence to suggest that anything else other than a formation of planes flew across Arizona that night.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
...it seems to be the OP has used a rather limited set of witness reports considering that thousands of people saw this event. I'm not saying he cherry picked these witness reports but a different picture may emerge if we analyzed a larger number of reports.

I used a limited set to keep the map easily viewable. Plus, there aren't many sites that have witness accounts with the exact time and location they were at.

On top of that, adding more marks to the map will just cause the people who saw planes or individual lights to overlap even more onto those who claim they saw a large black triangle.

A different picture most-definitely would not emerge by adding more witness accounts to the map. But, if you know of any website that portrays witness accounts that include time and location, then by all means post it and I can add them to the map.

originally posted by: dennisarends
your reasoning for evidence is pretty good, exept ufo's are also know to change mid air....

Would you mind providing an example of a solid craft changing in mid-air? Only bundles of balloons or CGI have fooled people into thinking that a "UFO" is changing mid-flight.

originally posted by: dennisarends
and a star blocking triangle is a star blocking triangle...... whatever....

Yet, there are many witnesses who did see stars within and around the triangle of lights. Why discount them just to believe that there was some large craft flying around that there's no evidence to suggest happened?

As stated in the OP, everyone who looked at the triangle of lights through binoculars or telescope, all saw individual lights with stars in between the lights. Nobody took pictures of, videos of, or viewed the alleged large black triangle through binoculars. There's just no proof of a large black triangle.

originally posted by: dennisarends
try thinking both ways first...

Science and research doesn't work like that when it comes to UFO's. You should always rule out any terrestrial or known craft/phenomena before attempting to claim "aliens" or anything else.

originally posted by: dennisarends
occams razor applies often.

You are absolutely correct. Taking Occam's Razor into account, what's easier to believe?

• A.) That there was a large black triangle flying around that nobody photographed, nobody video-taped, and nobody viewed through binoculars or telescope to get a closer look.
  
  or
  
  
• B.) That there was a formation of planes flying from one Air Force base near Las Vegas to another Air Force base in Tuscon that was video-taped, and viewed through a telescope and binoculars.

"B" is the most obvious answer in this case.

originally posted by: dennisarends
and indeed there were MANY sightings... but they ALL saw sometinh unexplaineble in the SKY right?

Unexplainable to them. What's unexplainable to one person may not be unexplainable to another.

There have been many times where people have posted "UFO" videos where the object was unexplainable to them, but easily explainable to others of us.

That also ties in to "knowledge and experience". I have experience seeing air shows at night with planes flying in formation with their lights on. If I would've seen that triangle of lights over Phoenix, the first thing that would come to mind for me is "look at that formation of planes".

Many people don't have that experience, so the formation is "new" to them, and their mind makes things up of what it could be.

Fear not those whose believe the Phoenix lights sightings were just put to rest.
Watching the first 5 minutes of James Fox's "I know what I saw"
will bring it right back to life. Then listen to NUFORC head Peter Davenport's
recent interview on Dark City about the sighting. Then feel it not only come back to life
but also gain Hulk like super powers in the process.
Ain't no way this perhaps 7.4 mile wide Phoenix UFO (as quoted by Davenport)
has just been laid to rest.

youtu.be...
soundcloud.com...

a reply to: _BoneZ_

Unexplainable to them. What's unexplainable to one person may not be unexplainable to another. 

There have been many times where people have posted "UFO" videos where the object was unexplainable to them, but easily explainable to others of us. 

That also ties in to "knowledge and experience". I have experience seeing air shows at night with planes flying in formation with their lights on. If I would've seen that triangle of lights over Phoenix, the first thing that would come to mind for me is "look at that formation of planes". 

If look back at UFO cases, you will come across some of the worst explanations by so called experts.

To them its not about the truth, but more to do with they can't handle the fact that something is unexplained.

Its not science, its belief