Why do people 'hate' the U.S. and Isreal.

originally posted by: Elton

originally posted by: FyreByrd
The USA is the most violent country in the history of the planet with arguably Isreal coming in second place. I don't think there is any disputing this.

I seem to recall some pretty big death tolls in WWII and the Roman army was no slouch either. I think you are wrong and I dispute your claim. I would like to see some #'s or proof that the USA is the most violent country in the history of the planet.

Sorry, I know it is easy to demonize the USA, but this is a pretty big claim. (also probably need to define violent country in this context at some point as I am thinking expansion and killing)

I agree with you that it doesn't have the biggest death tolls. That goes to Germany, Russia, China, and a few others.

However, factually besides the World Wars the US is responsible for the most military interventions over the last 100 years. If we define it that way, the US is one of the most aggressive.

Also, most of those other countries did their deeds anywhere from 30-70 years ago. The US is still at it.

originally posted by: lonesomerimbaud
a reply to: FyreByrd

14, 827 murders (according to FBI statistics) in 2012 out of a 2012 population of 313.9 million people.

In terms of U.S home violence this is nowhere near the worst world state.

In Israel there was 134 murders out of a population of 7.91 million.

Israel home violence is by no means the highest.

As societies both states are nowhere near the most violent.

Of course you are referring to military action casualty statistics.

We know what happened in Hitler's Germany. We know what Stalin did. We know what happened in WW1 and WW2.

The U.S is put in the position of being the world police force of Democracy. Israel have their own struggle. Muslim feuding would boggle the mind with the statistics of violence in recent years between Sunnis and Shias, and other feuding.

Might I suggest that you may be misinformed by hype and propaganda?

I'm not excusing violence, but the two states you mention are not the most violent, not by a long shot.

In the West we are very civilized. We are sensitive to conflict and very critical of our leaders when they engage in conflict.

I would encourage you to ponder who is actually informing you that the U.S and Israel are the most violent? Research it for yourself.

Israel is not a violent country in terms of its own society. If you go there you will not see any war. The military action is in very specific places; Gaza and Golan Heights. There is the odd terrorist incident, but they are thankfully very rare. Tel Aviv is very cosmopolitan. There you would feel that you are in any modern European city. It is a fully fledged modern democracy. The people are very modern and generally very descent. I am telling you what I have seen with my own eyes.

I know it is very upsetting to gentle and civilized people when confronted with the horrors of military action. It is a curse upon our world since the very earliest of times. How about we look at it another way.

If the U.S was to abandon its interests in the world and become insular another state like Russia or China would fill the gap. If the U.S had not intervened in Iraq then Hussein would have a nuclear capability by now and would have dominated the Middle East. He was a callous tyrant who had no issues with massacring the Kurds and Kuwait, Iran also. IS and Al Qaeda would be running amuck decimating Christians. Pakistan would may be now controlled by Al Qaeda and they would have a huge nuclear arsenal with which to blackmail other states. I am painting not too pretty a painting of what might have happened. It certainly would be a lot more dangerous as a world and who knows how many more people would have died.

If Israel did lay back and did not keep her enemies in check they would be armed to the teeth by Israel's enemies. There would have been a much nastier conflict with millions dead. Israel did not create the Arabic animosity toward the West. It has been going on for 1, 500 years. The Jews were decimated in Europe by Hitler. For almost a thousand years in Europe they were persecuted, even in England. They'd had enough. Having their own state was the only way forward because of the anti Semitism they have faced throughout the last two thousand years.

You don't like it that the U.S has to play a heavy hand. I don't like it. I hate it that Palestinian children have died because of this. Yet this world continues to be survival of the fittest. Brute force, unfortunately, is the only language states understand.

We can only hope that as we come together with better communication, sharing common ground and political will that there will be better times one day in the future. The majority of people are held ransom by extremists who use violence as a tactic to gaining political control. They use religion as a motive, but the real motive is political.

I will end my comment with a poem I wrote. Given the very basic tools we have as humans of collective decision making and state relationships there has not yet arisen a better civilized power structure. Let us not abuse this gift of civilization or let it be sabotaged. That is all I can say;


Democracy.
“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”(Winston Churchill).

Democracy and diplomacy
Are our best friends
The rule of rhetoric
The vitality of the vote
Are peaceable companions
They are the tools
Of civilization that enable
Societies to blossom.


How I would plead
With the East
To forsake old ways
Of military force
To give way
To majority rule
Even when one's own preferences
Are not the governing power.

In a democracy
We accept the ballot's decision
We tolerate the opposition
We argue with words
In a house of civility
A polite nobility
Of understanding between factions
Debate is the discourse of our won freedom.

Extremism is as the word suggests
imbalance of perspectives
Minority sabotage by the sword
Only harm arises
When one seeks to impose
Such a manifesto
History catalogues and witnesses
That it is force and violence
At the heart of such monsters.

The thing is, the argument that "The US is put in the position as the 'World's Police Force" is complete propaganda. It is a lie by a military industrial complex for nothing but neo-colonialism and neo-imperialism.

The US and west DOES NOT intervene across the world for democracy, justice, freedom, but instead for empire, geo-political power, and greed.

It is demonstrable.

OK...allow me to ask this as a serious question. Assuming "you can't have your cake and eat it too"...what if the world were given a choice to either have the USA involved in world events including violent ones, or not have the USA involved in any world events including violent ones. Which would the world choose? I don't pretend to know the answer. I believe that while we fight for our own agenda very often, we are also asked to act on the behalf of others. I know that when there are problems, natural disasters, etc...we give support, money and manpower. I believe that after 9/11, we didn't receive any of the same from anyone. The USA from what I see is left to fend for itself while we are expected to help everyone else. We are expected to send our military when a bully starts beating up a smaller kid.

So...if you could choose. Should the USA get out of other people's business, or be involved in other people's business. You can't say "be involved but only the way we want". Black or white. I personally believe that most countries are better off when the USA is involved. But I could be wrong.

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

If I could choose here is what I would do

1.stop all illegal immigration and immigration from Muslim countries!

2.stop all foreign aid!

3. Close down all overseas military bases and close all embassies .

4.increase military funding and aid to Isreal since they are only true allies we have.

5. Take savings and spend on space programs for jobs.

Basically I would follow a strict isolationist policy since most of the world hates us let them solve their own problems! Europe has chosen a culture of death with their political correctness let them have it!

Effective propaganda. Psychological operations, people are far more easily influenced, manipulated than you may be willing to believe.

Ever had a conversation with an American that hates America?

a reply to: ausername

So true I'm American and I've never had a conversation with an American that hated America unless they were some type of hippy drug addict loser! More common for Europeans to hate us because they are jealous of our standard of living because they chose to stay in Europe and be ruled by a king and queen lol!

The USA is the most violent country in the history of the planet with arguably Isreal coming in second place. I don't think there is any disputing this.

Oh hell yeah there is disputing that.

The Us has got nothing on Russia,China,Nazi Germany,Japan Empire, Ottoman Empire,Persian Empire,Roman Empire, Mongolian Empire, and the list goes on.

Since we are talking about HISTORY after all.

That was straight up intellectual dishonesty.

a reply to: neo96

As if to prove that all human beings have some basic things in common, no matter how generally opposed, I completely agree with you on that point neo96.

a reply to: FyreByrd

You made an absolute statement and provided nothing but your opinion as proof.

Each time you were called out on it you have shifted your statement without providing a single item of proof beyond opinion.

Where are the facts to back up the statement.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Question how many of the conflicts was the USA pulled into by treaty.. Vietnam, Korea, Ww1&2.

As for regime change how many do we know the cia actually pulled off, most I've heard about were spectacular failures.

I think the USA gets credit for quite a lot more than they deserve.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Question how many of the conflicts was the USA pulled into by treaty.. Vietnam, Korea, Ww1&2.

As for regime change how many do we know the cia actually pulled off, most I've heard about were spectacular failures.

I think the USA gets credit for quite a lot more than they deserve.

1st, wwi and wwII I don't hold the US responsible for.

There is solid evidence the Gulf of Tonkin incident was faked. Anybody with a modicum of critical thinking can realize that Vietnam was naught but a proxy war over global empire between the US and USSR. Same with Korea. Korea is different as there was a Chapter VII UN resolution demanding military action. So less blame there.

As to coups, we know factually that the US was responsible for a series of coups such as in Guatemala and Iran in the 1950's that successfully overthrew popular non-compliant and even democratically elected presidents and installed dictators. This is what the foreign policy is all about: pure geo-political power.

Also, go ahead and google US regime change interventions. It will blow your mind. Most are historically well known. The media and our leaders just don't tell you about it. en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: tiberius10721


a reply to: ausername

So true I'm American and I've never had a conversation with an American that hated America unless they were some type of hippy drug addict loser! More common for Europeans to hate us because they are jealous of our standard of living because they chose to stay in Europe and be ruled by a king and queen lol!

No, only uneducated idiots still believe in "American Exceptionalism."

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Ok since you consider yourself more educated show me one country with a higher standard of living for their middle class citizens than the USA and one country with a better constitution and I don't want to hear about free healthcare for the bums either!

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

I agree Vietnam was a proxy war, but the French started sucking us in before the Tonkin incident.

And we are going to have to agree to disagree about the covert side of the argument. Because I have a problem believing that an organization supposedly behind every bad thing in the last 50+ years can be as successful as some claim yet be so lazy covering their tracks that everyone knows what they did and why they did it.

a reply to: Irishhaf

I think the answer to why isreal and the United states is so hated is very easy it's called jealousy.I have noticed in life that people who are miserable are very jealous and hateful! If I lived in Europe I to would be very miserable if I had a low standard of living and had no rights like the first and second amendment and I was being ruled by a monarchy. Here in America even now you can do as well as you want to according to your imagination and God giving ability! We are and always will be number one not because we are a rich country but because we are a country rich with ideas!

originally posted by: tiberius10721
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Ok since you consider yourself more educated show me one country with a higher standard of living for their middle class citizens than the USA and one country with a better constitution and I don't want to hear about free healthcare for the bums either!

There are 5 countries with a better standard of living than The U.S. actually. Three of them in Europe.

www.businessinsider.com...

As for The U.S. constitution being the best, that is an arguable matter.

a reply to: JessicaRabbitTx

I misjudged you unfairly, my apologies. Its interesting that when the Dali Lama read the Koran he saw a book of love. Perhaps our eyes only see what we want them to see and nothing else. When I read the Koran I saw a book that gave females security in a time when they had none. So it was incredibly ground breaking which was only addressed by western cultures some 1000+ years latter. Like any book we have to take into consideration the time-frame it was written. For example most ignore stoning in Torah because people realize it was written for a different era.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

I agree Vietnam was a proxy war, but the French started sucking us in before the Tonkin incident.

And we are going to have to agree to disagree about the covert side of the argument. Because I have a problem believing that an organization supposedly behind every bad thing in the last 50+ years can be as successful as some claim yet be so lazy covering their tracks that everyone knows what they did and why they did it.

did you not see my link?

There are countless extremely well documented CIA ops that overthrew governments, manipulated civil wars, you name it. It's common knowledge with people that have a strong knowledge of international affairs.

It's quite literally conspiracy fact.... not theory.

Just look up right now on google for example "CIA and Arbenz." Guatemala

Here's one of many reasons.

well, for myself, i have been to America twice. i loved the place both times. and the people i met.

never been to Israel but i have no reason to doubt that i would have found some people i identified with.

travel broadens the mind.