Muslim woman challenges PA law; Judge forbids swearing on Koran

As a Christian, I going to surprise some and side with......

......



The woman! I know I would not want to be forced to swear an oath on the Koran, or any other holy book not of my faith, I do not think it's right to force her to swear an oath on the Bible. Allow her to swear on the Koran.


Pennsylvania law requiring witnesses to swear on the Christian Bible or make a non-religious affirmation before testifying in court

A judge would not allow the woman to swear on a Koran before she took the stand in a custody dispute with her estranged husband, and she said the law violated her religious liberty, reported Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

The woman’s estranged husband, who is also Muslim, swore on the Bible before his testimony.

But he argued that her refusal to do so could be construed to make his testimony seem less truthful, and he argued to the court that her actions were a type of witness intimidation.

“Which oath so taken by persons who conscientiously refuse to take an oath in the common form shall be deemed and taken in law to have the same effect as an oath taken in common form,” the statute reads.

Apparently the woman and her lawyer chose not the fight the judge, under the "non-religious" affirmation. Personally I think it's high time there's a change in the law then. I know, I know, I KNOW Christianity is the one true religion when it comes to the US. Not my words, just the mentality of people in the country. But for a country that supposedly prides itself on being a melting pot, we sure as heck don't act like one. And let's not whine about the founding fathers. They're not here. They're dead. We can still honor our founding fathers, our country, and the current people within by respecting their cultures and religions. (The peaceful ones. And I swear, if IS or Westboro is brought up, I WILL post cartoons. I'm warning you now!)

Seperation of Church & State LoL...




& how do they expect it to be a binding Oath if the Woman probably doesn't even care about the Bible?


Might as well swear on The Beano, it'll have the same effect for non-Christians.

a reply to: Anyafaj

Christianity is not the one true religion of the United States. Just as there is no official laguage of the United States (believe it).

If I were asking to swear on the Koran (if it were my faith) and was forced to swear on The Bible, I would personally have no need to tell the truth, and have a reason not to. Simple as that. They could tell me all day long that I swore on The Bible that I was telling the truth, but I would testify, it is not my faith therefore I have no reason to care whether my words are true just as The Bibles word is not true to my faith.

There is freedom of religion for a reason, being asked to swear on the bible means nothing at all IMHO. I believe in a higher self and higher dimension, but to swear on a book that has no law of the land within, why should I care? The Bible has nothing to do with the law therefore deserves no place in court.

If they had one sheet of paper that just said "Your God" to swear on, and in small type "Your family and all descendents from your seed" I may actually tell the truth. Though, all forms of governmment have lied at one point or another, and have taken the oath just like all formsz of government, police, fire figthers, doctors, etc. Yet they all do injustice (not every person, but in every category) and many don't get punished for not following their oath.

the whole practice of searing on ANY book should be trashed.
Swearing on a bible does not make you more likely to say the truth, it's a stupid ritual.

But let's humor these stupid superstitions:
the idea of swearing on the holy book is that you will be more honest because of how important the bible is.
But if the other person is not christian, then you should give them the book of their choosing because they will have no problem lying over something they don't believe in, see what i'm saying?

originally posted by: iDope
a reply to: Anyafaj

Christianity is not the one true religion of the United States. Just as there is no official laguage of the United States (believe it).

If I were asking to swear on the Koran (if it were my faith) and was forced to swear on The Bible, I would personally have no need to tell the truth, and have a reason not to. Simple as that. They could tell me all day long that I swore on The Bible that I was telling the truth, but I would testify, it is not my faith therefore I have no reason to care whether my words are true just as The Bibles word is not true to my faith.

There is freedom of religion for a reason, being asked to swear on the bible means nothing at all IMHO. I believe in a higher self and higher dimension, but to swear on a book that has no law of the land within, why should I care? The Bible has nothing to do with the law therefore deserves no place in court.

If they had one sheet of paper that just said "Your God" to swear on, and in small type "Your family and all descendents from your seed" I may actually tell the truth. Though, all forms of governmment have lied at one point or another, and have taken the oath just like all formsz of government, police, fire figthers, doctors, etc. Yet they all do injustice (not every person, but in every category) and many don't get punished for not following their oath.

I was being facetious when I was Christianity was the on true religion. There ARE people in the US who do believe this bunk. I don't. We're a melting pot, but we sure don't act like one.

I agree, if they ask people to swear to the God they pray to, then fine, but we demand everyone swear to the God of Christianity whether you believe in Him or not. Technically you could lie your bum off, and you could say you forced me to, I don't believe your God. You forced me to swear an oath to Him. I guess we should be thankful it's not a blood oath.

originally posted by: IShotMyLastMuse
the whole practice of searing on ANY book should be trashed.
Swearing on a bible does not make you more likely to say the truth, it's a stupid ritual.

But let's humor these stupid superstitions:
the idea of swearing on the holy book is that you will be more honest because of how important the bible is.
But if the other person is not christian, then you should give them the book of their choosing because they will have no problem lying over something they don't believe in, see what i'm saying?

I agree completely. Sadly, our country does not. They act as if you must swear to the God of Christianity whether you wish to or not. I've never heard this issue come up in news before today. Being Christian, obviously I have no problem swearing on the Bible. However, if they were to force me to swear on a Quran, or something Buddhists use, or what have you, obviously it would go against my beliefs. I would still tell the truth, but legally my testimony would be bunk for not using a book of my faith.

I think legislators need to look into changing these laws in the courtroom to provide people of faith, at least the major ones anyway, a book of their faith to swear on, and not just the Bible and only the Bible. The article referenced some states have started doing this, which is great, but this obviously needs to be widespread.

a reply to: Anyafaj

You are obviously not aware your particular holy book forbids the swearing of oaths?

Oh and you are not required to swear on the Bible in a court of law anymore, thanks to a guy named George Gordon.

ETA: Apparently George Gordon's website has had some changes since his death last year and no longer has all the information about that guy and his history and impact in the legal world. Shame.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: Anyafaj

You are obviously not aware your particular holy book forbids the swearing of oaths?

Oh and you are not required to swear on the Bible in a court of law anymore, thanks to a guy named George Gordon.

ETA: Apparently George Gordon's website has had some changes since his death last year and no longer has all the information about that guy and his history and impact in the legal world. Shame.

Where does it mention forbidding oaths? Seems strange as every President and elected official takes an oath. And these people will not let anyone forget that they are Christian. But I guess that goes hand in ass, as many Christians don't even read the work they follow and preach. It's like saying "I love Star Trek and they have such great messages in the episodes, I only saw 1 movie but I agree with everything they say, and you should too!"

a reply to: iDope

But I guess that goes hand in ass

Stealing it, freaking hysterical!

-----

Yeah, this is BS. She should be able to swear on any book she chooses, or choose not to. She also shouldn't be forced to say she has no faith in order to not swear on a Holy book.

I consider myself a Christian (not going to delve into my beliefs) but I am uncomfortable thinking about swearing on a Bible. I'l tell the truth to the best of my ability, but me and God have a relationship that I don't want the State to be a part of.

a reply to: iDope

Well, as is typical with the Bible, there are contradictory messages.

One place where it says not to swear oaths is Mathew 5:34.

33 "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.' 34 "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING.…

Another is in James 5:12.

But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your “yes” be yes and your “no” be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation.

Another verse alternatively says:

If a man vows a vow to the Lord, or swears an oath to bind himself by a pledge, he shall not break his word. He shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth. Numbers 30:2

There are more but you can Google for them if you're interested enough.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Might as well swear on The Beano,

burn the blaspheming heretic

the dandy is the one true comic

a reply to: Anyafaj

Personally I believe it is wrong for a Christian to swear on the Bible, or on heaven. I say this because in the book of Matthew it says:

But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;

And so one who believes in the word of God, should not swear on God, Heaven, the Bible. These things are divine in my philosophy and religion, and I have no business swearing an oath in their name. I can swear an oath on the honour of my ancestors, on my own life, but not on God or any aspect of my faith. They are sacred beyond the ability of any court to comprehend in law.

I have no idea if there is any similar passage in the holy book of the Muslim tradition. What I do know, is that bearing in mind the stance on oaths in Matthew 5:34 in The Bible, it is not appropriate for a Christian to swear oaths upon the word of God.

I don't think I could swear an oath to anyone that I will tell the truth. My subjective observations are no where near anything that can be considered "truth".

Truth is a tricky word, I might be able to relate an honest observation, but the truth is far beyond the scope of human perception IMO.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: Anyafaj

You are obviously not aware your particular holy book forbids the swearing of oaths?

Oh and you are not required to swear on the Bible in a court of law anymore, thanks to a guy named George Gordon.

ETA: Apparently George Gordon's website has had some changes since his death last year and no longer has all the information about that guy and his history and impact in the legal world. Shame.

I am new to my religion, so no, I am not. I am still learning. I've never heard of Gordon. Swearing on the Bible is still done in court, and it's still done to swear a President in. There's probably a conspiracy thread on this, but I've heard reports that Obama swore on the Koran. Now if a leader were Jewish, it would not bother me for them to swear on the Torah, if that were there choice. Or nothing for Atheists for that matter.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: iDope

Well, as is typical with the Bible, there are contradictory messages.

One place where it says not to swear oaths is Mathew 5:34.

33 "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.' 34 "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING.…

Another is in James 5:12.

But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your “yes” be yes and your “no” be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation.

Another verse alternatively says:

If a man vows a vow to the Lord, or swears an oath to bind himself by a pledge, he shall not break his word. He shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth. Numbers 30:2

There are more but you can Google for them if you're interested enough.

Thank you for this. As I said I am new and I am doing a verse a day to get through the Bible in a year. It comes with a devotional to help you to understand the verse. Plus I have a Chronic Pain Bible that has Chapter and verse, a story from the days of old, and a chronic pain story to relate to the Bible story you've read, as well as the chapter and verses you've read.

I'm not saying it's for everyone, but for me, it has been helpful.

The Encouragement Bible

Again, sincerely thank you.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Anyafaj

Personally I believe it is wrong for a Christian to swear on the Bible, or on heaven. I say this because in the book of Matthew it says:

But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;

And so one who believes in the word of God, should not swear on God, Heaven, the Bible. These things are divine in my philosophy and religion, and I have no business swearing an oath in their name. I can swear an oath on the honour of my ancestors, on my own life, but not on God or any aspect of my faith. They are sacred beyond the ability of any court to comprehend in law.

I have no idea if there is any similar passage in the holy book of the Muslim tradition. What I do know, is that bearing in mind the stance on oaths in Matthew 5:34 in The Bible, it is not appropriate for a Christian to swear oaths upon the word of God.

I will have to do some research in my Bible tonight. I'd like to thank you guys for helping to open my eyes as I learn in my walk in my faith. So far it would seem if I ever go to court, I would have to not swear on the Bible to testify, as it would seem to be against my religion. Thank you guys sincerely.

a reply to: Anyafaj

As a Christian I would refuse to swear on the Bible .. as .. you know .. it violates the teachings of the Bible.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Actually you can not swear on those either.

Mat 5:34
But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne;

Mat 5:35
or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.

Mat 5:36
And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black.

Mat 5:37
All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

All Oaths/swearing is wrong.

In Canada you have a choice of either:

a) take an oath on whichever holy book of your choice (all courts have the 3 Abrahamic holy books to choose from)

or

b) take a non-religious affirmation


Both ways confirm that you are pledging, in a court of law, to tell the truth. Both choices hold you to your oath equally the same way.


Very simple solution.

a reply to: CranialSponge

obvious question - why do only " abrahamic religions " get a religious oath ?????

that seems to throw every other religioun out there in the ` non-religious oath ` category