David the lawbreaker

originally posted by: Ignatian
Why do you look to Paul? Jesus blatantly showed that right in front of The Pharisees, when he WORKED on the sabbath day. Oh, the horror.


a reply to: DISRAELI

Hey man, if your cow falls in the ditch, are you just gonna' let it die there? No, Jesus was all for getting your cow out of the ditch.

Swallow a camel, choke on a gnat.

originally posted by: Ignatian
Why do you look to Paul? Jesus blatantly showed that right in front of The Pharisees, when he WORKED on the sabbath day. Oh, the horror.

Yes, I agree that Jesus and Paul were in tune on that question.
I don't see how that's an argument against anything I've said.
Why, exactly, are you looking for reasons why Paul should not be quoted?

Our theology is based on The Old AND The New Testament.

The Old Testament is a mingling of pre-cut lumber, wiring, pipes, panes of glass, mortar, concrete, rolls of carpet, appliances, odd furniture, etc.

The New Testament is a nice, pretty house, live-in ready, the end-product of all those pieces/parts.

Capiche?




a reply to: DISRAELI

a reply to: Ignatian
Again, I don't understand how that is an argument against anything that I'm doing.

If he's a teacher, he certainly needs to rethink his lesson plan. It's seriously misguided.

I would lean toward a crusted soil, but that implies a smattering of rich soil beneath. Humus is rich soil, and I find little humility here.

I fear birds the most.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Im not arguing. Maybe I misunderstood your
implication about basing theology on the NT.


a reply to: DISRAELI

Im not looking for any reasons, go ahead, quote Paul all day long, I love the guy. But why quote the student, when the teacher is the one doing the teaching?



a reply to: DISRAELI

originally posted by: Ignatian
If he's a teacher, he certainly needs to rethink his lesson plan. It's seriously misguided.

You don't even know what my lesson plan is, do you?

Ah well, may as well advertise.
For 2015;
Four more weeks of O.T. stuff.
Three weeks of "Jesus said..." threads.
Beginning at Easter, a focussing on John, including "the Word became flesh", and a number of "Truly, truly" sayings.
A series on "Removing sin in the Old Testament" running in parallel with the completion of last year's "Ways of Sacrifice" series. This has to be done to pave the way for talking about atonement in the New Testament.
An autumn dominated by prophets, leading up to "Rachel weeping for her children" at Christmas. I'm drafting them at the moment. If I wasn't writing this, I would be writing up the next paragraph in an Amos thread.
I have some thoughts for 2016, but I don't know how they will pan out.

As for previous years;
God's Law (Index thread)
1 Corinthians; Blueprints of the church (Index thread)
Song of Songs; The unseen husband (Index thread)
James; Teacher of faith and wisdom (Index thread)
Revelation (Index thread)

originally posted by: Ignatian
Im not looking for any reasons, go ahead, quote Paul all day long, I love the guy. But why quote the student, when the teacher is the one doing the teaching?



a reply to: DISRAELI

Then Disraeli should quote Gamaliel and Hillel? Paul said he was taught by Gamaliel.

Paul has a leg up on you, he was a Jewish convert to Christianity in the first century, so he kind of knew the score then. Remember, he was also preaching to people who were previous Greek and Roman pagans.

Paul isn't teaching anything outside of what he understood from Judaism then. He never recanted his Jewish identity. But at the same time, he had to learn how to effectively speak to those gentile converts to Christianity. That's why he said "the gentiles do by nature those things which are contained in the law, therefore are a law unto themselves".

So, he was teaching that the law is more than just a system for one group of people, because the gentiles kept it by nature. Paul was a smart guy, he knew the score because before he was converted, he was the bad guy who used the law to persecute people by. If anyone knows the law, Paul did.

That's why Paul's conversion is significant, because his realization was that through his own abuse of the law, he was actually breaking the law.

I presumed your lesson plan involved denigrating The Church that Christ started, The Catholic Church. And I also presumed your intention is to use sola scriptura or sola fide to that end. These philosophies and Protestantism are in error, and I feel it's my duty as an intentional disciple of Jesus Christ to point these errors out. Presumption is a common error (and sin) that I make far too frequently however. I truly love to stand corrected.


If I may ask, as I'm relatively new here, what is your motivation? Are you working on a book? That is quite an impressive body of work.




a reply to: DISRAELI

Gentiles weren't Jews, that's why they're Gentiles. They could care a less about Mosaic Law. When you say "law", I assume that's what you are referring?



a reply to: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Ignatian
I presumed your lesson plan involved denigrating The Church that Christ started, The Catholic Church.

I spend 99.9% of my time on ATS not even mentioning the Catholic church.
I don't start threads on the subject. For heaven's sake, I even managed to get through Revelation without ONCE identifying the Catholic church as the Beast or the Harlot, which few Protestants would be able to avoid.
The Catholic/Protestant divide is not my main concern. I would rather have a mutual acceptance that you are a member of the church of Christ, and I am a member of the church of Christ, and get on with tackling the more important Christian/non-Christian divide.

If I may ask, as I'm relatively new here, what is your motivation? Are you working on a book? That is quite an impressive body of work.

For the moment, this is my mode of publication. Whether books develop is a question for the future.
My motivation is obviously to be a servant of God using what he has given to me to use.

originally posted by: Ignatian
Gentiles weren't Jews, that's why they're Gentiles. They could care a less about Mosaic Law. When you say "law", I assume that's what you are referring?



a reply to: WarminIndy

Take that verse however you want, but Paul said "The gentiles do by nature those things which are contained in the law, therefore are a law unto themselves".

So if Paul was referencing the gentiles in that passage, that can only mean he was speaking to the Jewish converts. And if he was speaking to the Jewish converts about the law, then the law of Moses was what he was talking about.

He said that you, as a gentile, do by nature those things which are contained in the law, therefore you are a law unto yourself.

If you knew the early Catholic church history, then you should be aware that Peter was Jewish and preached primarily to Jewish converts, but he still expected them to follow some facets of Jewish law. The only thing Peter was removed from was the concept of preaching to gentiles, comparing them to the unclean meat on the cloth. God still said "Eat" and Peter replied "I have never eaten anything unclean". That was symbolic of preaching to the gentiles, because what God makes clean is clean.

So the law was still part of Peter's understanding. The kosher law of Moses was used as an example to Peter. Remind us again, why you guys don't eat meat on Fridays. Was it in remembrance of Jesus' fasting 40 days in the wilderness? But Jesus never instituted Lent, and if I am not mistaken, your fasting for Lent can entail something you want to give up, not necessarily meat.

Jesus didn't even eat bread those 40 days, but after that, came out of the wilderness preaching, repent and believe the Gospel for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Fat Tuesday is coming up soon, followed by Ash Wednesday, and tell me how Jesus would have felt about girls getting their Mardi Gras beads?

"Fair enough, I'll buy that." (99.9% of it)

My motivation? I'm not shy, I'll say it: I want every last human being on earth, and all who will ever will be born in the future, to be a Catholic Christian. It's that simple. And it's what Jesus wants.

At every Catholic mass, (therefore I hear it daily)...the priest leads a prayer before we share the Sign of Peace. It resonates to my very core....

"Lord Jesus Christ, who said to your apostles: Peace I leave you, my peace I give you, look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church, and graciously grant her peace and UNITY in accordance with your will. Who live and reign for ever and ever."

We all respond, of course... Amen!

So, you see, I'm following my conscience as well. Jesus saved me. Literally. I don't believe there is a God. I KNOW there is a God. He spoke to me. I've heard His voice.





a reply to: DISRAELI

originally posted by: Ignatian
"Fair enough, I'll buy that." (99.9% of it)

My motivation? I'm not shy, I'll say it: I want every last human being on earth, and all who will ever will be born in the future, to be a Catholic Christian. It's that simple. And it's what Jesus wants.

At every Catholic mass, (therefore I hear it daily)...the priest leads a prayer before we share the Sign of Peace. It resonates to my very core....

"Lord Jesus Christ, who said to your apostles: Peace I leave you, my peace I give you, look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church, and graciously grant her peace and UNITY in accordance with your will. Who live and reign for ever and ever."

We all respond, of course... Amen!

So, you see, I'm following my conscience as well. Jesus saved me. Literally. I don't believe there is a God. I KNOW there is a God. He spoke to me. I've heard His voice.





a reply to: DISRAELI

And what do you do about Mardi Gras, which is the largest Catholic holiday in this country? I think I would be ashamed knowing my very Catholic daughter was showing herself to get beads and my sons getting drunk and wandering around aimlessly on the streets.

A gentile is someone who is not Jewish. A Jewish convert is called a Jew.


Reread that whole chapter where you're getting that verse. That's good stuff. I don't think we're on the same page.



a reply to: WarminIndy

Umm, I'm speaking off the cuff here but I'll take a swing at that.

Mardi Gras is not a "Catholic holiday". I don't know what that means. Our biggest "holidays" (Holy Days) are Christmas and Easter.

Mardi Gras would certainly be a "Roman Holiday", from what I hear.

I've personally seen other Catholic's daughter's boobs myself, quite a few times and have certainly wandered around drunk on the streets. So shoot me.

I've lived to tell about it...but I won't.




a reply to: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Ignatian
A gentile is someone who is not Jewish. A Jewish convert is called a Jew.


Reread that whole chapter where you're getting that verse. That's good stuff. I don't think we're on the same page.



a reply to: WarminIndy

I think we might disagree, a Jewish convert to Christianity is called a Christian, by faith. They might be Jewish because they are by birth through their mother a Jew, but would you consider Timothy a Jew, when his mother and grandmother were both Jewish, that Paul commends?

Timothy, Christian or not?

originally posted by: Ignatian
Umm, I'm speaking off the cuff here but I'll take a swing at that.

Mardi Gras is not a "Catholic holiday". I don't know what that means. Our biggest "holidays" (Holy Days) are Christmas and Easter.

Mardi Gras would certainly be a "Roman Holiday", from what I hear.

I've personally seen other Catholic's daughter's boobs myself, quite a few times and have certainly wandered around drunk on the streets. So shoot me.

I've lived to tell about it...but I won't.




a reply to: WarminIndy

Just had a snicker there. (ok, have it your way, Fat Tuesday is coming up, you can find absolution on Ash Wednesday)

Back to the topic at hand, David, sinner or not? I say sinner. Forgiven? Yes.

Fat Tuesday is a New Orleans thing, sort of a local custom so I'm told. It's not a Catholic thing.

Ash Wednesday IS a Catholic thing though. Is there anything in particular I can help you with on that? The scriptural and ancient tradition behind it perhaps? If you're not a sinner, you wouldn't understand what I was saying however.

My kids favorite holiday? Halloween. (a hijacked, Catholic "thing" also)


a reply to: WarminIndy