Religion, Scripture and logical thinking

a reply to: StalkerSolent

Fair point, it isn't like superstition has gone away or anything. Maybe we've just got better at detecting it.

Keep in mind that it was only until recently that if you were an atheist or agnostic you could be killed for having those thoughts.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: StalkerSolent
Keep in mind that it was only until recently that if you were an atheist or agnostic you could be killed for having those thoughts.

I suppose you are referring to the inquistion? Something that pretty much ended when atheism started to become a thing?

Yeah, story of mankind, kill those who are different. Romans killing Christians, Christians killing Muslims, Nazis killing Jews, Americans killing natives. Not even counting wars, genocides, hate crimes, racism.


Given the context, the story of the inquisition seems almost anecdotal.

Some atheists and agnostics like to claim they suffer persecution and discrimination, but honestly they have it pretty good. I would love to see the number of atheists killed because of their philosophical stance so we can compare this to other groups and make a proper statistic.

I'm not excusing anything or siding with any group, but I believe your claim above is vastly exaggerated and dramatic.

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: StalkerSolent
Keep in mind that it was only until recently that if you were an atheist or agnostic you could be killed for having those thoughts.

I suppose you are referring about the inquistion?

Yeah, story of mankind, kill those who are differents. Romans killing Christians, Christians killing Muslims, Nazis killing Jews, Americans killing natives. Not even counting wars, genocides, hate crimes, racism.

Actually, I was just referring to the general idea that if you weren't religious you were evil. It extended WAY beyond the Inquisition.

Discrimination against atheists - Ancient Times

Some historians, such as Lucien Febvre, have postulated that atheism in its modern sense did not exist before the end of the seventeenth century.[4][5][6] However, as governmental authority rested on the notion of divine right, it was threatened by those who denied the existence of the local god. Those labeled as atheist, including early Christians and Muslims, were as a result targeted for legal persecution.[7][8]

Given the context, the story of the inquisition seems almost anecdotal.

Some atheists and agnostics like to claim they suffer persecution and discrimination, but honestly they have it pretty good. I would love to see the number of atheists killed because of their philosophical stance so we can compare this to other groups.

Just because you aren't hearing about it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Atheists around world suffer persecution, discrimination: report

Atheists and other religious skeptics suffer persecution or discrimination in many parts of the world and in at least seven nations can be executed if their beliefs become known, according to a report issued on Monday.

The study, from the International Humanist and Ethical Union (IHEU), showed that "unbelievers" in Islamic countries face the most severe - sometimes brutal - treatment at the hands of the state and adherents of the official religion.

But it also points to policies in some European countries and the United States which favor the religious and their organizations and treat atheists and humanists as outsiders.

The report, "Freedom of Thought 2012", said "there are laws that deny atheists' right to exist, curtail their freedom of belief and expression, revoke their right to citizenship, restrict their right to marry."


Other laws "obstruct their access to public education, prohibit them from holding public office, prevent them from working for the state, criminalize their criticism of religion, and execute them for leaving the religion of their parents."

Atheists Face Discrimination On A Shocking Level (INFOGRAPHIC)

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Pretty much illustrates my point.

"early Christians" labeled as atheists. "Unbelievers" (usually people with different faith) persecuted in the Muslim world.


"True" atheism is more a product of the Western world and the Lumières, and these people like you are certainly not persecuted.

Actually this is almost the current norm in the modern Western world, so Western atheists talking about persecution is always a bit ironic.


The people mentioned in the texts above are mostly people persecuted for their diverging faith, not their lack of faith.

a reply to: JUhrman

Well don't misconstrue me, I'm not here to claim a persecution complex. I'm just trying to point out that it exists and has existed for a while. Diverging faith DOES include no faith by the way.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I hear you. Like I said, I believe the claim that atheists and agnostics were killed for their stance until recently is an overly dramatic declaration made by organizations supporting atheists in the US.

I can understand it since in the US there is a specific problem with Christian fundamentalism. But it's probably one of the only place in the world where true atheists feel threatened specifically.

Humanity is mostly believing in something supernatural (monotheism, polytheism, animism).

Atheism as a critical refutation of the supernatural is relatively new and centered on the western world, and these people are not killed besides a few isolated incidents with a nutcase.




Today it's much more dangerous to be a Christian in Syria than an atheist. So you could as well say "Keep in mind that it was only until recently that if you were a Christian you could be killed for having those thoughts"

But you did not. It was a little bit biased.

All I'm saying really

a reply to: JUhrman

I'm also not trying to downplay other religious persecution in the world either. I'm not even trying to suggest that atheist persecution is a bigger problem than any other religious persecution. But believe it or not atheists DO exist outside the Western world and there ARE countries that will execute you for being atheist.

Demographics of atheism

a reply to: Krazysh0t

You teach me nothing new.

Like I said, I find the claim overly dramatic and giving a biased view of reality. Just my opinion.

Compared to all demographics, atheists and agnostics have it pretty good.

originally posted by: JUhrman
Each path is unique. I guess a good starting point for you would be to reflect on why you have so many questions, could it be because of something you fear or that worries you?

Sure, I have fears and worries just like anyone but that isn't what drives me to have so many questions. I'm just a curious guy and like pondering things.

I've done a little bit of study on some of the past on some of the things you speak, though not much.

Anyway, thanks for a little more insight on a subject I haven't checked out as much as others. It's interesting stuff.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
Sure, I have fears and worries just like anyone but that isn't what drives me to have so many questions. I'm just a curious guy and like pondering things.

I'm (still) a curious guy and I was like you before, staying awake in my bed thinking about things for hours.

One of my experiences involved what it seemed like my subconscious uncontrollably streaming out everything that was apparently obsessing it without my knowledge. Like some kind of purge.

Today I'm still curious but a different kind of curious. I don't stay awake anymore with racing thoughts and endless questions.


It made me understand (and it was confirmed talking with others) that it wasn't normal to feel like this:

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
So many questions and so many what ifs. So many things to analyze and consider. I seriously take hours to fall asleep because I can't stop thinking about all sorts of things.

It wasn't just being curious. (It can also be an indication of giftedness though I hate that kind of label, and yet it can be helpful to identify specific issues)


I cannot assume about your personal case, but if you suffer from this, it probably means there is something unresolved under all this questioning.

If you don't really suffer from it, well just ignore what I said

One of the mainpage thread provides very interesting information giving credence to what mystics have always "felt" and were simply waiting for science to shed light on. That consciousness is not "just" a result of chemical reaction, but a component of reality, influencing it and giving it shape.


Our brains are quantum computers and consciousness is not a biochemical process
www.abovetopsecret.com...

"The origin of consciousness reflects our place in the universe, the nature of our existence. Did consciousness evolve from complex computations among brain neurons, as most scientists assert? Or has consciousness, in some sense, been here all along, as spiritual approaches maintain?" ask Hameroff and Penrose in the current review. "This opens a potential Pandora's Box, but our theory accommodates both these views, suggesting consciousness derives from quantum vibrations in microtubules, protein polymers inside brain neurons, which both govern neuronal and synaptic function, and connect brain processes to self-organizing processes in the fine scale, 'proto-conscious' quantum structure of reality."

I hope to live to see the day when scientists will show that there never was any need for separation between their theories and the claims of spiritual people, that both can describe the same reality with different words and approaches

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Adam and Eve were direct creations of God, we can assume they were the first souls.

LOL!!

Good Gawd. You believe Adam and Eve were actual humans?
Akragon's response was perfect - in fact I didn't see any reason to reply to your inane question about Cain and Abel. He graciously posted what I would have said.

But now you're talking like you actually think Genesis is 'true'. Is it possible you've gone round the bend? Dude! You used to at least make SOME sense. Or maybe I'm missing your point.

You know damn well that it is not possible that Adam and Eve, one pair of people were the progenitors of the entire human race. Not mathematically, not logically, and not true. Myth.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

You can't prove your argument by corroborating it with arbitrary conjectures. This started with Jesus, John the Baptist and Elijah. So let's take it to it's logical beginning. Adam and Eve were direct creations of God, we can assume they were the first souls.

No. According Jewish tradition all souls were created on the first day.

Jubilees 2
For on the first day He created the heavens which are above and the earth and the waters and all the spirits which serve before him -the angels of the presence, and the angels of sanctification, and the angels [of the spirit of fire and the angels] of the spirit of the winds, and the angels of the spirit of the clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, and the angels of the voices and of the thunder and of the lightning, and the angels of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and of summer and of all the spirits of his creatures which are in the heavens and on the earth, (He created) the abysses and the darkness, eventide , and the light, dawn and day, which He hath prepared in the knowledge of his heart.
www.pseudepigrapha.com...

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

The story of Adam and Eve is simply the nth version of the principle of creation found in all myths and religions. There is truth to it but of course as an allegory.

Its most simple form is found in the abstract philosophy of Pythagoras:


At first there was only the One (Monad).

Then out of itself, the One evolved into duality (Dyad).

Finally, from duality emerged the multitude and all subsequent forms.


This creation myth is found in all religions, sometimes at multiple levels (energy and matter, heaven and earth, light and dark, male and female, ...)

This is the way almost everything reproduces and evolves in this universe, and thus an universal law of transformation and evolution and the reason why all these myths are worth studying. It is a terrible mistake to assume our ancestors were only superstitious and stupid. Myths were the way to transmit scientific knowledge in oral traditions.

There is wisdom in all myths and religions if we know were to look but of course you are right; the story of Adam and Eve is a creation myth.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Akragon

Consider how vast the universe is... You keep on about your extensive knowledge of math... How many places in this universe could life exist?

You can't prove your argument by corroborating it with arbitrary conjectures. This started with Jesus, John the Baptist and Elijah. So let's take it to it's logical beginning. Adam and Eve were direct creations of God, we can assume they were the first souls.

So who's reincarnated soul was in Cain and Abel?

Edit: And please don't mock me. I've spoken only twice out of 20,000 posts about advanced mathematics and that making the doctrine of the Trinity not hard for me to conceptualize.

Im not trying to mock you bro... Just sayin...

that question is just silly... and Adam & eve are a myth...

Even IF they existed... they weren't the first people on earth... they were just the first people in the garden

Remember this topic has the word "logical" in the title... so lets try to stick to what is logical

a reply to: JUhrman

There is wisdom in all myths and religions if we know were to look but of course you are right; the story of Adam and Eve is a creation myth.

Quite. I totally agree with you.
The problem is with 'believers' who think they are true stories.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: JUhrman

There is wisdom in all myths and religions if we know were to look but of course you are right; the story of Adam and Eve is a creation myth.

Quite. I totally agree with you.
The problem is with 'believers' who think they are true stories.

I agree fundamentalism is a problem.

It was actually my first post in this thread.



Don't let it depress you though. I doubt the beliefs of some people in a remote country bother you. Consider that there are similar people in your country too.

edit: as long as no one is harmed though. I understand that if fundamentalism becomes dangerous it must be dealt with. About that, I found it really fascinating that nothing is done in the US to prevent this. I understand it's part of the culture, but still, something should be done about it.




And I sincerely hope the people in this board can use critical judgement and see it's not a problem with the bible nor Christians, but a problem typical to the US. Almost no one outside of the US believes that stuff. Even the Vatican think these people go way too far.

As said in my first post, just like Muslim fundamentalism started started in Saudi Arabia, modern Christian fundamentalism started in the US.

a reply to: Akragon

that question is just silly... and Adam & eve are a myth...

You can't use Jesus and John the Baptist as a "proof" of reincarnation, and then reject Adam and Eve from the same book. In other words, you can't affirm something from one part of the book as proof of your claim, then reject another part of the same book as "myth". If you assume something in one part is factual for the sake or argument then you have already affirmed the book as authoritative.

That same Jesus said Adam and Eve were the first man and woman. So for the sake of our argument you affirm Jesus is telling the truth. So following that logic trail, who were the souls of Cain and Abel?

Remember this topic has the word "logical" in the title... so lets try to stick to what is logical

Dude, I just called you out for trying to support your argument with arbitrary conjecture, are we going to stick with the rules of logic or not?

a reply to: NOTurTypical

You can't use Jesus and John the Baptist as a "proof" of reincarnation, and then reject Adam and Eve from the same book. In other words, you can't affirm something from one part of the book as proof of your claim, then reject another part of the same book as "myth". If you assume something in one part is factual for the sake or argument then you have already affirmed the book as authoritative.

That same Jesus said Adam and Eve were the first man and woman. So for the sake of our argument you affirm Jesus is telling the truth. So following that logic trail, who were the souls of Cain and Abel?

Jesus didn't say anything about Adam...

And the bible is not one book... so both of your points are moot...

Dude, I just called you out for trying to support your argument with arbitrary conjecture, are we going to stick with the rules of logic or not?

Of course... but what I said wasn't arbitrary at all... I was simply weighing the odds... and the fact remains, its completely naïve to believe that there is no life anywhere in the universe except here... we know life can live in extreme conditions... we also know that there are many planets out there with water... you might not want to believe what im telling you but its the truth regardless of your opinion of it...

Life exists in places other then here... that is logical based on what we know.... We just haven't found it yet...

Water = life... its logical that where we find it... we will also find life... and considering the size of the universe only from what we know.. which is nothing... intelligent life is out there too

On the other hand.... adam and eve are a myth... which is also based on mathematics....

its not possible that our species started with just two people...

Another one of these huh? *Yawn*

I think (insert religious ideology here) are morons/backward thinkers/haters/irrational thinkers/plaques of mankind/holding society back "flame bait" Trolling threads are so getting old.

Its interesting to me that for all the talk about moving forward, and claims of wanting to have discourse these kinds of threads continue to get made over and over and over again. Mind you its not just the Atheist that do it, Christian and Muslim and Buddhist do it as well.

Anytime the discussion STARTS with, I think X group is illogical or irrational you are promised to have a non productive discussion. Alas it is the nature of ATS it seems for this to be the norm. Religious bigotry both coming and going is the order of the day.