Anti Austerity win in Greece

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: ketsuko

Unless your your demark, norway or sweden.

They managed to balance the books.


Dont get me wrong im not sure Im a fan of socialism.

But lets not paint things with broad brushes.


I could point out many capitlism epic fails but to do so would ignore succeses like hong kong and singapore.


What I will say is socialism seems to be harder to set up successfully, not impossible as the mentioned scandinavian countrys show but still alot harder.


Personaly Id rather a free market but if a country wants socialsim and gets it working good for them. I wont get up on a soap box.

I think there is a bigger difference from Scandinavia to Greece.

Scandinavia may have larger areas, but Greece is dominated by the Mediterranean tourist trade. There are a whole lot more people immigrating to Greece than Scandinavian countries.

Greece is in a precarious situation, with Turkey on one side trying to get into the EU and the Balkans on the other side still having ethnic issues.

Denmark Economics
Greece Economics

The unemployment rate for Greece is 25.8%, that's a huge chunk of people. The unemployment rate for Denmark is only 3.9%. Of course Denmark will find it easier to balance their budget, they don't have that many people out of work.

a reply to: WarminIndy

I agree.

Diffrent countrys diffrent conditions.

What works in one country wont work in others.



Im just tire of some people thinking a one size fits all brush of works worldwide.
Or there wsy is automactically best.

a reply to: crazyewok

I'm not pointing fingers.

I'm just saying they have a smaller population that is mostly homoogenous and buys in or has natural resources (I think Norway has natural gas or oil?) to help finance it. And even so there are some cracks showing in some of those countries. They may keep their ships righted, but they have some challenges to overcome.

It would never work in the US. We are too large and too heterogenous in our population with too much "diversity" being pushed to keep us divided.

originally posted by: grandmakdw

Then they just do what the US has done, have their own currency, and print more!

The United States is able to do this because Treasury Bonds are continually being purchased. What is Greece's credit rating as compared to the United States? Will anyone buy Greek bonds in large enough quantities to support them printing that much currency?

Also, rampant currency production will lead to skyrocketing inflation.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: WarminIndy

I agree.

Diffrent countrys diffrent conditions.

What works in one country wont work in others.



Im just tire of some people thinking a one size fits all brush of works worldwide.
Or there wsy is automactically best.

Norway also has a personal income tax of 39%.

US has 35%

Greece has 46%

Norway is paying higher taxes with a smaller population.
Greece is paying very high taxes with greater unemployment.

Their taxes are simply not enough to keep paying those who are unemployed, and yet people keep moving there. Why?

Switzerland has depegged from the Euro....that's enough warning for me....The general collapse cant be far in the future now.....

originally posted by: stirling
Switzerland has depegged from the Euro....that's enough warning for me....The general collapse cant be far in the future now.....

It was a good experiment for as long as it lasted.

California alone has the fourth largest economy in the world. And we have Texas, New York, Ohio and Georgia that contribute greatly, we are, as ketsuko pointed out, too vast and too heterogeneous to match.

H.G. Wells in his book What is Coming? warned that Europe would united and collapse because they were going to try to compete with the US. This was written in 1917.

It will be a failure because Europe isn't like the US, we are united states that have only one single currency, not a single currency and each state also with a different currency. Also, our tax rates are across the board, for each state. We also have a minimum wage, that is consistent throughout.

Therefore, the United States as one country may be diverse and heterogeneous, we have only one Federal government over all the 280,000,000 people, both legal and illegal, in this country.

But considering that California has a higher economy than Australia, we could lose California and still be economically higher than the EU. You are comparing the Dollar not only to the Euro, but also for each country's own state currencies.

H.G, Wells What is Coming: A Forecast After the War

Now, as a matter of fact, money is a power only in so far as people believe in it and Governments sustain it. If a State is sufficiently strong and well organised, its control over the money power is unlimited. If it can rule its people, and if it has the necessary resources of men and material within its borders, it can go on in a state of war so long as these things last, with almost any flimsy sort of substitute for money that it chooses to print. It can enrol and use the men, and seize and work the material. It can take over the land and cultivate it and distribute its products. The little man in the office is only a power because the State chooses to recognise his claim. So long as he is convenient he seems to be a power. So soon as the State is intelligent enough and strong enough it can do without him. It can take what it wants, and tell him to go and hang himself. That is the melancholy ultimate of the usurer. That is the quintessence of "finance." All credit is State-made, and what the State has made the State can alter or destroy.

Greece obviously is lacking resources. Norway has resources but not enough men. The US has both.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: WarminIndy

I agree.

Diffrent countrys diffrent conditions.

What works in one country wont work in others.



Im just tire of some people thinking a one size fits all brush of works worldwide.
Or there wsy is automactically best.

Norway also has a personal income tax of 39%.

US has 35%

Greece has 46%

Norway is paying higher taxes with a smaller population.
Greece is paying very high taxes with greater unemployment.

Their taxes are simply not enough to keep paying those who are unemployed, and yet people keep moving there. Why?

Intresting point.

It likely has to do with its location.

Its a gate way into the ME, Africa and the balkans.

Greece may be a crap hole by western standards but for alot of the 3rd world its still heaven.

No one will lend them any more money and if they print their own it will be like the german mark during the 1920's It will cost a million dollars to buy a loaf of bread.
a reply to: stirling

I'd say the people are actually doing the right thing and saying, NO, We Get It and NO You're Fired, to the fake chessgame scarcity system.

Now if they'd go one step further and demand disclosure and zero point energy, tech upgrades, land and aquaponics for all and end to banking, they'd achieve paradise on earth.

This has to be done while preserving true freedom. Not the freedom to sink or swim. But the freedom to speak your mind, grow what you want on your property, run home businesses, protect self and loved ones, and not be owned by anyone.

What Greece needs is genuine Conservatism.



The "Left" wingers will just find a different way to seal the coffins.

All debt based ideals are trash.

originally posted by: Unity_99
I'd say the people are actually doing the right thing and saying, NO, We Get It and NO You're Fired, to the fake chessgame scarcity system.

Now if they'd go one step further and demand disclosure and zero point energy, tech upgrades, land and aquaponics for all and end to banking, they'd achieve paradise on earth.

This has to be done while preserving true freedom. Not the freedom to sink or swim. But the freedom to speak your mind, grow what you want on your property, run home businesses, protect self and loved ones, and not be owned by anyone.

You contradicted yourself between those two paragraphs.

The first is a set of demands. Things everyone must do. It is the antithesis of the freedom you say everyone must have in the second paragraph.

Case in point: How do you mandate everyone having aquaponics and then give everyone the freedom to grow what they want? What if someone doesn't want aquaponics on their land?

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Unity_99
I'd say the people are actually doing the right thing and saying, NO, We Get It and NO You're Fired, to the fake chessgame scarcity system.

Now if they'd go one step further and demand disclosure and zero point energy, tech upgrades, land and aquaponics for all and end to banking, they'd achieve paradise on earth.

This has to be done while preserving true freedom. Not the freedom to sink or swim. But the freedom to speak your mind, grow what you want on your property, run home businesses, protect self and loved ones, and not be owned by anyone.

You contradicted yourself between those two paragraphs.

The first is a set of demands. Things everyone must do. It is the antithesis of the freedom you say everyone must have in the second paragraph.

Case in point: How do you mandate everyone having aquaponics and then give everyone the freedom to grow what they want? What if someone doesn't want aquaponics on their land?

And in the meantime, who's going to be growing and harvesting the other food needed? Someone has to work and someone has to control the workers.

It's all fun to think about but when the grease hits the pan, the nitty hits the gritty, someone still has to be in charge and someone still has to be charged. There's no way around it.

Sure, maybe that poster thinks it might be paradise, but then who is going to be doing the actual work for consumer goods? Maybe they don't realize that ALL of their consumer goods and what it took for those consumer goods to be delivered, came from someone working.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Ghandi tried something like this in India and India still hasn't recovered from it. He tried to mandate that everyone be self-sufficient and that the country be socialist.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: WarminIndy

Ghandi tried something like this in India and India still hasn't recovered from it. He tried to mandate that everyone be self-sufficient and that the country be socialist.

With the billion people in India, the lowest caste is still hunting rats.

They have a caste system still, even though they say they don't. I am afraid that the US is falling into the trap of the caste system, I have heard rumblings toward that thought.

Socialism doesn't work with a caste system, especially one that has been around 3,000 years. Socialism doesn't work regardless, I don't know why people just don't understand that?

Romania is the poorest country in Europe, they were Socialist. Hungary was Socialist and even though their economy was a little better, they had no personal freedoms.

Socialism removes personal freedoms because those in power still control the State.

a reply to: WarminIndy

My theory is that socialism is extremely attractive on paper, as is communism. And they work great in theory.

I also think that buried deep inside the human psyche, possibly implanted there by God at our creation is an impulse that, if followed to its natural and pure conclusion with no evil, would lead society to look very close to socialist. Well, try a thought experiment where you try to imagine the perfect society based solely on Christ's teachings and it would be a very immaterial society where people had no qualms about sharing amongst themselves freely. It would seem to be socialist, but it wouldn't be as no one would be taking, people would be freely giving.

But that's neither here nor there.

In the real world, you can only come close in very tiny societies or with a force structure in place that gives and takes. It is not a voluntary system. And wherever mankind is involved, so is corruption.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: WarminIndy

My theory is that socialism is extremely attractive on paper, as is communism. And they work great in theory.

I also think that buried deep inside the human psyche, possibly implanted there by God at our creation is an impulse that, if followed to its natural and pure conclusion with no evil, would lead society to look very close to socialist. Well, try a thought experiment where you try to imagine the perfect society based solely on Christ's teachings and it would be a very immaterial society where people had no qualms about sharing amongst themselves freely. It would seem to be socialist, but it wouldn't be as no one would be taking, people would be freely giving.

But that's neither here nor there.

In the real world, you can only come close in very tiny societies or with a force structure in place that gives and takes. It is not a voluntary system. And wherever mankind is involved, so is corruption.

Yes, there is an attraction, especially to those who have never actually read Marx, Hengel or Trotsky.

I think Metropolis may have been the first to address this on film, but the warning was very clear, someone still had to do the work to keep the upper level satisfied.

You are correct, wherever mankind involves itself, there will always be corruption.

It will be interesting to see if they can pull off what Iceland did.

Iceland's EU bid is over, commission told

The new Iceland officials say "Cancelled".

The bankers and Germany are worried about the other “PIGS” countries: Portugal, Italy and Spain…the G is of course for Greece….Funny name for these people they labeled them… just goes to show you how they view the Southern, less wealthy, Europeans.

If Greece bails out they are worried the other PIGS countries will follow suit.

I think the term PIG more appropriately applies to the bankers