American laziness promotes socialist government

I asked a friend of mine last week what was

the most exciting part of her break. She replied that

she got to spend two weeks with her boyfriend. She

went on to say that her boyfriend was interning in

Australia and they did not get to spend much time together.

I asked her if he liked it there and she replied, "Yeah,

but they don't like Americans." I asked why, she replied,

"They think we're lazy."

The only response I could conjure up was, "Well, we

are!"

Does this attitude offend you?
Just last week I heard the news reports on the debate

between Democratic presidential hopefuls Bill Bradley

and Al Gore. Both candidates appeared very passionate

and stern in their deliverance of ideas; however, it

is the very concept of those ideas that disturbs me.

Gore's health care plan calls for extreme measures

in strengthening the health care system for the uninsured.

Bradley wants to throw an unprecedented amount of money

into his version of health care. These plans shadow

the concepts that Hillary Clinton failed miserably

to pass in 1994. And yes, both of these plans are a

nationwide nemesis, blueprinting Tennessee's managed

health care system we call TennCare.

TennCare is socialized medicine/health care. It is

soaking our state dry of resources. TennCare hinders

many necessary government programs (higher education)

to get proper funding. A nationwide program such as

this would require massive hikes in taxes to offset

its bottomless appetite for funding. Gore and Bradley

also threw out ideas that detailed government-sponsored

after-school day care plans. This is another socialist

idea that would soak up billions of tax dollars.

Both candidates are fighting over which one can tax

and spend the most money. These so-called Democrats

are playing to the emotions of the public in implementing

these socialist programs at the very cost of what we

Americans pride ourselves so gallantly - democracy.

Still ticked off about the "lazy" comment?
Story here


You have to read the whole article to understand, this is just the beginning.

All democrats out there, I seem to remember ted kennedy and others playing on the freedom's of american's at the dnc, it was very passionate and very well said but i sat there thinking, thats not the platform they usually stand on, but nonetheless democrats stood up and cheered as if it's what they've been passionate about this whole time... Isn't it the above?

Not being snide or anything just curious because you can't have it both ways..

And I hope you read the whole article before you go and jump the gun.

I'd like to know the logic in this tax and spend ideology? Where is it going to take this country? To new heights? A new balanced budget? A free market? please i'm dying to know. help me, for I must be logically impaired.

I think you know my opinion on matters such as state-sponsored health care and education, TrueLies. Socialize it all. If I have to pay 45% tax to make sure that everyone get free university education and health care when they are sick, then it is a very small price to pay.

America is slacking into a society that, instead of promoting
success, punishes it; instead of encouraging people to move up in society, it awards those who sit at home for the prosperous class to pay for.

from the article cited in True Lies article.

People want something for nothing. They want free health care. They want the government to find them a good paaying job, preferably more than $10/hr.
The more our citizens want more for free, the more our country will go down the drain. The very ideals that made this country what it once was is now being puniched, or at least looked down upon.

We are now expecting out goernement to do too many things it was never meant to do.
I am barely in the middle class anymore. I cannot afford to pay ANY MORE to the government.

From Zapatas signature
"I am not a liberator. Liberators do not exist. The people liberate themselves." - Ernesto 'Che' Guevara

Unless they live under a Socialistic government... Then the government does it for them................

Originally posted by General Zapata
I think you know my opinion on matters such as state-sponsored health care and education, TrueLies. Socialize it all. If I have to pay 45% tax to make sure that everyone get free university education and health care when they are sick, then it is a very small price to pay.

Then Me and EVERYONE else wants to come live under your roof, you can pay for us all, pay for our food, housing, medical bills, and whatever else we all need HELP with, because damn, us lazy ass "disenfranchised" people need a helping hand...

We work the most hours out of all other "1st World" countries

We get the least paid time off

We pay the most for our medical coverage

Our literacy & education rates as a ratio of our wealth has us being surpassed by all other first world countries

And in a related piece, we have a higher ratio of our citizen in the prison system than any other first world country.

People have to get away from imposing political hysterics to the naming of goverment management models. They also have to realize that every successful government is an amalgam of mmultiple models - the only absolutes exist in theory.

DontTread: You can't afford to pay anymore to "the government" because of the crony capitalism policies of Republican government. Those massive tax cuts, those massive rebates to corporations, that massive 'socialist' intervetion of the government to keep poorly run industry afloat with subsidies, the allowing of foreign registry to avoid billions of taxes.....all of these things have shifted the burden to the middle & low classes. It's been in the form of increased property tax, increased school tax, increased sales tax and every single taxation or fee that the state government can charge because the Federal government has siphoned off funds the states would otherwise receive.....to pay for their Crony Capitalistic policies. The Fed can run a deficit and increase the debt ceiling, as the Bush government has done every year to all time muti trillion dollar levels. States are pay as you go - they can't do anything on a deficit.

TrueLies: let's take your premise of Socialized Medicine and look at it in the proper context: It's another form of Crony Capitalism that grew out of control from 1980 to 1992, had some pings against it until the Congress was under Republican control from 1993 to 2000, and has gone back to being hog wild.
Prescrition drug prices going up 60% to 75%, premiums going up so that a family of four would pay just about $1000 a month. And during all this, legislation after legislation allowing companies to cut to the bone the amounts of contributions to employee benefits.
That's why we have 50 million American with out Health Insurance. The fastest growing segment? Households making over $50K per year.
I'm an Independent, but on this issue, Democrats have been the only ones making any sense - Daycare program give families more time to work & earn. Universal Health care takes a huge financial burden off of working families. Better education & free education enables a world leading workforce. All of those things put billions of dollars of consumer spending into the American economy and can be paid for in extremely easy fashion - cut military spending by 5% ( weapons systems, crony contracts, Halliburton outsourcing), and require companies who make trillions here to pay their taxes.

No flames at you, but this "conservative" who wrote this article, that's studying political science is likely the same as our ATS staunch conservatives: some 20 year old putz who can't wipe his own azz without asking his parents for money, and enjoying his academic career off of their labor instead of working several jobs or the GI Bill, yet , has great 'insights' and 'life experience' to speak on the countries state of affairs.....after watching Fox News and listing to Sean Hannity.

Originally posted by Bout Time
DontTread: You can't afford to pay anymore to "the government" because of the crony capitalism policies of Republican government.*snip*.....all of these things have shifted the burden to the middle & low classes. It's been in the form of increased property tax, increased school tax, increased sales tax and every single taxation or fee that the state government can charge because the Federal government has siphoned off funds the states would otherwise receive*snip*

BoutTime: Your attact on the reuplicans doesn't work in this case. My paycheck versus the price of a car, health care, mortgage or rent has been out of line since well before 2000. And, acctually, the state of Michigan has had a democratic governor for much of the last 30 years (Blanchard and the worst of them all, Granholm---I wish Canada would take her back )
You can speak of the evil of the republicans all you want, but I see just as much corruption and pocket-lining among the democrats. Our dear governor is so out of the league: she increased the sales tax, robbed municipalites of much of their revenue sharing. We have very high cigarette taxes, a lottery that doesn't help education, failing schools, esp in Detroit (also rife with corruption). Our legislators and state employees have wages higher than conterparts in other states. We are losing many jobs in Michigan. In fact, we are one of three states with negative job growth.
We have two democratic US senators. I don't see much help coming from them

He hee... I just moved to Michigan, Traverse City to be exact. I've never been to such a backwards state before. It's freakin' nuts up here yet the people are so convinced voting democrat is the only way......... It's sad really. So many low income jobs. Yet you go grociery shopping, and the items that I would buy in Nebraska cost twice as much up here even before they add on all the taxes. It's nuts.......

We bought our puppy from a lady up in traverse city, beautiful place, absolutely beautiful...

Perhaps you are just hanging around the wrong crowd, Michigan is pretty much split right down the middle in terms of party politics... though it's a blue state, it's pretty neck and neck...

Anyhoodle, welcome to Michigan, summer time up that way is gorgeous!
Enjoy the snow!

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
Our dear governor is so out of the league: she increased the sales tax, robbed municipalites of much of their revenue sharing. We have very high cigarette taxes, a lottery that doesn't help education, failing schools, esp in Detroit (also rife with corruption). Our legislators and state employees have wages higher than conterparts in other states. We are losing many jobs in Michigan. In fact, we are one of three states with negative job growth.

Granholm? lol, you got that right.... Oh but she started the "cool cities" project, this supposedly is going to fix everything! Raise the cigarette tax on people who can't even afford to pay taxes, turn away from the failing school system in detroit, sleep with macnamara so you can become govenor... (not sure if thats factually correct, but i'd be willing to bet on it)

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
she increased the sales tax, robbed municipalites of much of their revenue sharing. We have very high cigarette taxes, a lottery that doesn't help education, failing schools, esp in Detroit (also rife with corruption). Our legislators and state employees have wages higher than conterparts in other states. We are losing many jobs in Michigan. In fact, we are one of three states with negative job growth.
We have two democratic US senators. I don't see much help coming from them

Then it would be interesting to track your states receipt of Fed monies; do they coincide with the state level increases?
What type of business developement do they have going on in the state? Is it tracked?

Here's MI cheer-leading page for economic development:
medc.michigan.org...
We hear a lot about musinesses leaving. The average Joe, esp. the ones who would like nothing better than to work for a living, are often out of luck.

Michigan ranks 38th for Adjusted Federal Expenditures Per Dollar of Taxes in 2003:
www.taxfoundation.org...

Michigan doesn't do a very good job selling itself to business or the federal government.


I started a news thread to vent my frustrations. Sorry for the hijack.
politics.abovetopsecret.com...

Back to the subject




[edit on 16-12-2004 by DontTreadOnMe]

This is pathetic...

In "socialist" countries like Norway there is a very large and good social system.. but the majority of the citizens do work.

Even with large government social programs people don't automatically quit there jobs and live off the state.. if you believe this you are totally ignorant.

Nobody is going to burst into your house, eat your food, and watch your television. Give me a break people.

If I knew such a system would do this I wouldn't be for it. Trust me.



The reason for the rise of taxes is because of poor management of wealth taken in through taxes... this is absolutely true. If you regularly misplace wealth ultimately you will begin trying to make up for it with added taxation.

[edit on 17-12-2004 by RedOctober90]

True lies, our health care and education system are more socialised than that of the USA, so why would we accuse you of laziness because of this? In fact, i dont think we in Australia hate the USA your laziness. I think the vast majority of the people here hate the US because of your nationalistic attitude, your self-righteous attitude, the fact that you act as 'world police' (# yeah!) but dont practice what you preach, the fact your country sets a bad example as the world super power...

We dont hold anything against your people (well we didnt untill we realised that moe than half of your country actually wants Bush in power), just your government and the systems it runs on...

But no your social security system doesnt make us think your lazy, if anything it makes you look like a nation controlled by greedy rich people not willing to sacrifice a cent to help their bretheren

Originally posted by LostSailor

From Zapatas signature
"I am not a liberator. Liberators do not exist. The people liberate themselves." - Ernesto 'Che' Guevara

Unless they live under a Socialistic government... Then the government does it for them................

a socialist government is set up by the revolutionaries who toppled the previous government, so it is the people who liberate themselves. Stop trying to take petty jabs at the socialist ideal. We all see right through you.

On to the point: this article is obviously economic rationalist rubbish. You can normally identify it by the lame and completely unfounded 'socialized amenities promote laziness' rhetoric.

[edit on 18-12-2004 by General Zapata]

Originally posted by General Zapata

a socialist government is set up by the revolutionaries who toppled the previous government, so it is the people who liberate themselves. Stop trying to take petty jabs at the socialist ideal. We all see right through you.

Yeah... then they hand over their liberation to their government. You seem to have no problem taking petty jabs at Capitalism... or President Bush for that matter.

On to the point: this article is obviously economic rationalist rubbish. You can normally identify it by the lame and completely unfounded 'socialized amenities promote laziness' rhetoric.

Nice way to promote socialism... Anything you can't argue you just shoot down as rhetoric. Just how is it unfounded? Seems to me citizens of socialist governments work less hours, take more vacations, and production is limited because of this.

Originally posted by LostSailor


Yeah... then they hand over their liberation to their government. You seem to have no problem taking petty jabs at Capitalism... or President Bush for that matter.

AH a debate about left wingers , excellent!
BTW they hand over their liberation to the people, now tell me how this is a government cause if you count it as one then i must say 5 million americans is a big government.

Nice way to promote socialism... Anything you can't argue you just shoot down as rhetoric. Just how is it unfounded? Seems to me citizens of socialist governments work less hours, take more vacations, and production is limited because of this.

The same happens with right wingers , "its left wing propaganda". Sound familiar?
Seems to me that right wingers want a police controlled state with no liberties and want to topple freedom.
We all have our opinions.

The inconsistencies are interesting... someone posted in my thread that "Democrats would raise the retirement age to 80 to save social security." Wouldn't that achieve the goal conservatives want, to increase productivity?

Seriously, people have to make a difference between social-democracy, socialism and communism. Acceptions differ from country to country, but what most Western countries like Norway, Sweden or Canada have is a social-democracy - that is, capitalism with a wide social net. I don't see that as being a problem. In Canada, the average work week varies from 35 to 40 hours, the vacation time from two to four weeks, thus not very different from the United States. Most people I know still work till they're 65. Social-democracy doesn't make people lazy; it just helps keep them healthy and productive, IMHO.

The difference is that yes, our taxes are higher. However, if those higher taxes are going to guarantee that there are government programs to ensure the food I eat, the water I drink and the medication I take are safe, that if I lose my job the government will support me until I find another on, and that if I become disabled or am victim of a work accident I don't go hungry because of it, then I'm happy to pay those taxes.

Originally posted by LostSailor
Nice way to promote socialism... Anything you can't argue you just shoot down as rhetoric. Just how is it unfounded? Seems to me citizens of socialist governments work less hours, take more vacations, and production is limited because of this.

it is unfounded because the idea that competition, and not co-operation, is what is needed to force people to get off their asses and work is only true up to a very limited point. Mostly, it serves to alienate the people without the natural talents for business and the corporate structure, and just pushes them into menial, degrading jobs with no possibility of advancement. These people then in turn become jaded and alienated from the system that failed them. privatized amentities do MUCH more harm than good.

I think the vast majority of the people here hate the US because of your nationalistic attitude, your self-righteous attitude, the fact that you act as 'world police' ( yeah!) but dont practice what you preach, the fact your country sets a bad example as the world super power...

Please don't think we all have that attitude about Americans. I certainly
do not!
American people are like any other peoples of the world, struggling to eak
out a living under an ever increasing repressive regime.
I humbly apologize on behalf of Australia for those comments