Why is Charlie Hebdo OK, but not Dieudonné ?

I wanted to share an interesting video about one of my favorite stand up comedian, Dieudonné.

I've even made a couple of threads about him in the past and the constant controversies surrounding his political views.

To be honest I think this video is the best analysis of the Dieudonné saga and the hypocrisy of the French government on the subject of free speech in France.

You know why Sam...


He is an anti-Semite...


I didn't stick up for Hebdo's Islamophobia...
I won't stick up for this guy either...



And the fact that he is a friend of Jean-Marie Le Pen...

That's...
Just...

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
You know why Sam...


He is an anti-Semite...


I didn't stick up for Hebdo's Islamophobia...
I won't stick up for this guy either...



And the fact that he is a friend of Jean-Marie Le Pen...

That's...
Just...

Wow Charlie, such certitude in your statements must mean you're an expert in the subject I guess.
Lol ok
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic. But anyway, have you watched the video ?

He's not an anti Semite. If you believe he is, well ok good for you but I assure you he is not AT ALL.

And he is certainly not LePen's friend either, it's not as simplistic as that. Lol

You who spends lots of your time in anti Zionist threads should know that the ridiculous anti Semite accusation card is a tool used anytime anyone dares to criticize Israel.

What exactly makes him anti Semite?
This ?

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

well, the question then comes... why is anti-muslim bigotry welcomed, embraced, even celebrated, while anti-Jewish bigotry is given the vitriol and cold shoulders it deserves?

if one looks at the sort of hate directed at Muslims - and I imagine you already know this, but I'm putting it out there - most of it is identical to the hate directed against Jews. it's the same mentality, just being channeled towards an "acceptable" target. it's especially egregious when you see Jewish voices, people who will with one side of their mouth lament antisemitism, yet use the other side to say the exact same thing against Muslims - people like David Horowitz or Abe Foxman for example.

I recon Charlie Hebdo got what they deserved to some degree. You dont go around maliciously attacking the muslim leaders and or prophets without expecting retaliation.
Islam dont hide the repercussions of insulting their holy men and to boot it is disrespectful. Yes both sides are but you cant say it wasnt expected.
It was just asking for trouble.

Your suggestion that Hebdo is ok is wrong in my opinion.

You also cant use wrong to justify another wrong, its backwards.

originally posted by: borntowatch
You also cant use wrong to justify another wrong, its backwards.

Using a wrong to justify a wrong, turns that wrong into a right. Not something I practice or agree with but, If the ends justify the means it's ok. At least that's the message I get in certain forums in regards to certain subjects.

Who are you to say God didn't tell them to kill those people from the magazine? Maybe all of their actions were righteous? Who knows what God has planned! Remember when he used to command the death of people for things like picking up sticks on the Sabbath? Or the genocides of the Old Testament. All justified in your opinion ammaright? So why should we assume extremist Muslims aren't justified by their God in their actions.

It's all a part of their God's plan. Maybe we occupy their promised land.

Those people at the magazine were wicked and refused to turn from their ways. God gave them every warning and chance to repent but they chose not to, apparently.

/sarc

Religion is sickening, for the most part.

a reply to: TheTengriist

No, no, no. Jews and muslims don't act alike, I don't know of any Jewish ghetto enclaves where I'd be attacked for being white.
Jewish youngsters in the West don't stone police and ambulance. Jewish youth do not riot and burn up and destroy hundreds of cars while the authorities tacitly watch without interfering.

Western Jews don't operate in nearly the same manner as muslim immigrants in the West. Their difference in behaviour is like day and night.

Ask yourself why virtually no one on the "far right" in Europe critical of immigration have a problem with Asian immigrants?
The only ones that have a problem with Asian immigrants are actual neo-nazis.

But why this difference in attitude towards different groups? Can't be because of the vast difference in how they interact with their adopted country? Their collective effect on society?

People praise Asians for many reasons and generally find them an asset to the country and society in general.

Muslim youth on the other hand are belligerent, ungrateful, bigotted trouble-makers that run in gangs and prey on people.
They're aspiring gang bangers with a religious extremist twist. I'd take Bloods and Crips any day. Soon they'll probably have muslim crips and muslim bloods though, throwing up gang signs while screaming allahu akhbar. The results are in, MENA immigration is a huge failure and a giant drain of resources with mostly negative effects on society. A double fail which is only becoming more apparent each day.

I have worked hard on coming to understand the french cultures and values, in order to properly integrate.

When I first heard about Dieudonné and the charges that were brought against him, I questioned people around me, and came to the conclusion- okay, the french don't take the whole "freedom of speech" as far as we do. They consider there are limits even to that. Ok. Cool. I get that. I'm on board.

Then this whole Charlie Hebdo thing happened, and suddenly, oh no, there are no limits- nothing is sacred, and no one should respect that which is sacred for others. What??? Wait....


Then they start policing social media and arresting people for "hate speech" or any speech that might incite violence, and then I'm like, double what????

We're back to the same old BS every culture does, I guess- what we have laid down as limits, and what is sacred, must be respected and will be enforced---- but for anyone else's ? F- them.

Hypocrisy seems to be an inherent human trait.

originally posted by: TheLaughingGod
Muslim youth on the other hand are belligerent, ungrateful, bigotted trouble-makers that run in gangs and prey on people.
They're aspiring gang bangers with a religious extremist twist. I'd take Bloods and Crips any day. Soon they'll probably have muslim crips and muslim bloods though, throwing up gang signs while screaming allahu akhbar. The results are in, MENA immigration is a huge failure and a giant drain of resources with mostly negative effects on society. A double fail which is only becoming more apparent each day.

I do not agree.
It is not all muslim youth. at least here, there is a cultural problem which turns out many arab youth that are like that.
They are in opposition to the majority of muslims.

I was talking to a muslim woman the other day, that I know well. She lives within one of the "ghettos" or as americans have termed "no-go" zones.

She perceives that there are these criminal gangs (just as in any suburb, in any country). Then there are the very humble and pacifist population, and there is a small proportion of what is like the muslim equivalent of "born again" Christians.
They are regarded by the moderates as crazy and actually in direct opposition to the principles of the religion.

Her analysis was that not having been raised with the daily education and discipline of the religion (things like prayer and ritual, and the prohibition of harming others, and obligation to love and help others) they fall into the traps of crime, and then at some point, want out and feel bad, and decide (a bit late in life) to turn to religion.

So they are all gung ho- too much- and trying to learn the principles and values, but simply interpreting them according to their own already formed perceptions and habits. They are distorting the religion to actually continue the same sort of behavior, but this time, feel justified.

These young people who end up following this route are usually the offspring of arab immigrants who came here and dropped much of their practice in order to integrate. They didn't teach their kids the strict discipline and values.
But we carry much cultural baggage that isn't even consciously passed on, but in more subtle ways, that can be perfectly adapted to a certain environment and religious context, but you take it out one piece of that , and the dynamic falls apart.


One of the differences I see in this struggle with the Jews, is that they never gave in to rejecting their religious background in order to integrate. -And that has been respected here! There are laws against anti-semitism, and no simultaneous pressure from the collective for them to stop being jewish, and become more like the native peoples in tradition, behavior, or values.

I do think there are some cultural differences that make it easier for them to get along in this environment. Like they put less value on being humble and self effacing, and that leaves them with a more dynamic approach to things like work ethic.

But the reactions of the authorities and media play an active part in these differences, I think.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer

originally posted by: borntowatch
You also cant use wrong to justify another wrong, its backwards.

Using a wrong to justify a wrong, turns that wrong into a right. Not something I practice or agree with but, If the ends justify the means it's ok. At least that's the message I get in certain forums in regards to certain subjects.

Who are you to say God didn't tell them to kill those people from the magazine? Maybe all of their actions were righteous? Who knows what God has planned! Remember when he used to command the death of people for things like picking up sticks on the Sabbath? Or the genocides of the Old Testament. All justified in your opinion ammaright? So why should we assume extremist Muslims aren't justified by their God in their actions.

It's all a part of their God's plan. Maybe we occupy their promised land.

Those people at the magazine were wicked and refused to turn from their ways. God gave them every warning and chance to repent but they chose not to, apparently.

/sarc

Religion is sickening, for the most part.

Have you missed my point all together, are you so agenda driven you have to make everything about you. Thats Narcism.

Hebdo attacked the islamic prophets and gods, they knew they were skating on thin ice.
They got exactly what they would have expected.
Simple, gods or no gods, that is exactly what happens when people print stuff that angers others, always has always will.
Politics causes the same thing, its not just religion, atheism and communism as well.

wake up, we are all in this together.

a reply to: borntowatch

I got your point and pretty much agreed with it.

All I'm saying is how do we know those killing were wrong in the grand scheme of things. Of course it was rhetorical and sarcastic but still a valid point imho. Either way I see I went on a little rant there, that wasn't really on topic. My apologies. A little out of sorts tonight. I can see how it came off as agenda driven narcissism I suppose. It's another subject for another thread..

a reply to: Bluesma

Rule 1 of Sweden, Sweden is always worse in every way. The Nordic and Middle Eastern culture is a major clash, they find themselves on the opposite sides of a spectrum. The major difference is in the orientation of the control locus, Middle Easterners are heavily leaning on the side of an externalized control locus, the opposite is true in Scandinavia with an internalized one.

Is their sense of agency largely influenced by the surrounding external world. If there's a problem where does it most likely originate? This can be very congrous with a victim mentality which left leaning politics unashamedly exploits and nurture.

Where I live people cater in obeisance to increasingly hostile segments of society that do not want to be a part of the country at all. I mean even attacking ambulances in particular on a regular enough basis is a pretty crazy thing to begin with.

When will everybody acknowledge the big Elephant in the room, it's an increasingly dire disaster waiting to happen and people are conjuring increasingly more neurotic and fantastic conceptions of reality to justify the increasing contrast between reality and what they profess reality to be. It's like collective amnesia, an artificial collective psychosis manufactured by the propaganda masters. I mean the demographic changes themselves will be enough to guarantee a total implosion of indigenous culture and to perpetually fundamentally change the whole identity of the country. I never remember signing off on committing cultural suicide in face of an alien desert culture that does nothing to respect us as a people.

And no one ever actually tackles the issue at all, in media. I never hear a sensible rebuttal, the so called "debate" comes down to ad hominem attacks, racist in particular, common easily swallowable feel good mantras.
I'ts embarassing actually, that people have access to so much information but they're totally oblivious to what I imagined had been plain to see just a few decades ago.

Cultural Marxism and it's pretension of progress have pushed on all sides of every issue for so long that they long ago left the confines of reality and continued unabashedly pushing increasingly more bizarre notions, even spreading its tentacles and imposing it's pressure on science creating an ideologically driven pseudo-science(this is particularly in Sweden). And the social sciences, forgot about it. A totally ideologically united front with government, education, business and the media all pushing the exact same agenda. And make no mistake, it is an agenda.

The numbers of people immigrating is at record levels in history, these types of mass immigrations simply hasn't happened before. Either we'll put the foot down fast or all of Europe except Finland will be Islamic in a hundred years and that is cold hard mathematics.

a reply to: TheLaughingGod

Well, I'm glad you got that off your chest. Unfortunately it wasn't a response to anything I said, nor was it relevant to the thread. So I'm afraid I must award you no points for the effort you put forth.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

You got it plain wrong.
The ugly truth is, as usual, that all truths are not good to say.

Dieudonne is supporting that a lot of people (including me) are sick of the whinning of the jews.
While France is paying compensations for the holocaust to Jews, a similar position is unthinkable for any other spoiled people.
Please see another older thread on Dieudonne here

What the Jews never understood - or wished to realise - about the holocaust is that they have been victims of their own therories applied against themselves : ethnical proselitism.
If you think this is a disgusting thing, I do too don't worry.

Why were the Kabalah scriptures and other jewish stuff release after the holocaust ?
What may be the religious/historical consequences of this chain of events ?

Here is another quote from an older and deceased french humorist, Pierre Desproges :

Le monde est divisé en 2 categories, les juifs et les anti-semites

The world is divided in two categories, Jews and Antisemites

I wonder if anyone would have the guts to call this historical french figure an antisemite :

I think it boils down to that old American saying "my country, right or wrong" put another way, "my religion, right or wrong", and as most Islamic countries seem to have banned the bible, I know the Saudi's have, they have only one religion to read about, as for the Talmud, I bet those seeing it would have a screaming fit.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: borntowatch

I got your point and pretty much agreed with it.

All I'm saying is how do we know those killing were wrong in the grand scheme of things. Of course it was rhetorical and sarcastic but still a valid point imho. Either way I see I went on a little rant there, that wasn't really on topic. My apologies. A little out of sorts tonight. I can see how it came off as agenda driven narcissism I suppose. It's another subject for another thread..

Cool I have been known to do the same.
I have issues with others attacking others beliefs, be them atheism muslim or christian
I think that particular newspaper were wrong, I also think the perpetrators of the murders were wrong.
I believe that, including christians, those who push their beliefs as hard as some do are wrong.

I believe we know they were wrong because human life is valuable, taking it is wrong. Clearly muslims (some) believe it is justified as many communist countrys believed killing religious people was right, as did christians.

I think deep down we all know, have a moral compass that values life, maybe not.

This isnt just about religion, its about humanity.

The scary thing is what if we dont think they were wrong, thanks for the reply, no apology necessary.

Just go easy when I drop a catch next time

Sorry to sound blunt people but get real please...

He is not just critical of Israel & Zionism...



He said a journalist belonged in a Gas Chamber...
He is an anti-Semite.



I can criticise Jews all I like, and so can you...
The moment we say something like that about Gas Chambers is when that line is blatantly crossed.

I see the french are still perfecting the art of Stand Up.

a reply to: TheTengriist

a reply to: samsamm9

He is an anti-Semite. Apples to oranges.