(Part 1) The Phoenix Lights - Laying To Rest The Myth

originally posted by: Jay-morris

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Jay-morris
Astronomers have seen unexplained UFOs,

Sure they have but no where near the numbers of other people with less trained eyes.

because you have not, does not mean no astronomers have.

Guess you don't read my posts. I have posted more than a few times I saw two UFOs both of which turned out to be something odd at first but mundane in the end.

Also, what makes you think you should see more? You are looking at stars planets, moons etc, not the Sky.

Actually we amateur astronomers look at the sky quite a lot. As for professionals many observatories have wide angle all sky cameras for stuff like meteor showers.

More chance of a person looking up at the sky with the naked eye and seeing a UFO, than someone looking at stars, planets moons etc

Amateur astronomers often do naked eye astronomy....

Most UFOs can be explained, nothing special in you explaining yours. So, what's your eyes trained for? Planets, stars, comets, moons, aircraft?

Okay, I guess the case that involve pilots are more believable to you, as they are trained observers. Or does it only count if you are a debunkers.

I guess debunkers have super powered trained eyes to observe.

Yes many debunkers on here have trained eyes as you put it, because much of ufo/supposed alien craft's threads rely on photography/video many members on here have that as a long term hobby (me 35 yrs) or earn a living from it !

We even have our own thread on here were we post our efforts to photograph/video the objects in the night sky if you haven't seen it have a look.

Members Photographs

The equipment used on that thread varies from DSLR'S with various lenses, telescopes, even up to pro grade equipment not point and shoot compact cameras or camera phones which most ufo posts have been taken with.

I took my first image of the moon through a telescope with my manual film SLR 30+ years ago.

So we have a BETTER understanding of what we are looking at/and what to look for in an image, and also with claims made about objects in pictures/video and now with exif data many people get caught out talking BS re the subject.

If we think it's BS we say so and will normally give a reason why but with the same respect if we see something that we think is real we would back it.

There has to be other life out there it's a numbers thing BUT is any of it advanced enough or close enough to visit us I don't think so.

Our culture is being FLOODED with UFO mythology stuff:
Ancient Aliens, Youtube, and all these 'fake sightings'.

Our culture is being manipulated on a grand scale,
not seen since Christianity (another psychological
operation).

I do believe the ancient alien people sincerely believe what they are espousing, they just arent that smart, its hard to even listen too. However if you mute and just look at the locations they visit, they do explore many cool places that i wasnt aware of.

Its unfortunate there are so many misidentified objects, whether intentional or not, but thats why I prefer a sighting with multiple witnesses or radar confirmation.

Cultural manipulation is another thing - commercials, special interests groups, politicians - its all part of free speech. Maybe there would be less of it if more people followed that manipulative Christian religion...

Kev

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
the military was plum off it's rockers to hold it's training exercises
during prime hours over a major city. An infant would have known
this would likely result in "UFO mania". Now, the military might
not care, but really they should.

It's not the military's fault that there are inexperienced people in the world.

What if I wanted to fly my toy drone at night, which has multiple LED lights? Should I say "HEY! I shouldn't fly my drone at night because inexperienced people might think it's a UFO!!!!"

YouTube already has a plethora of inexperienced people shooting videos of drones with LED's, not knowing what they're seeing and claiming "UFO!"

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
How does your theory (...) account for the fact this event was said to have begun over Henderson Nevada?

Henderson is just outside of Las Vegas. The whole story has always started near Las Vegas, and is also included in the OP, proving like I said early on, that people are just skimming the topic instead of taking in everything that was posted.

If you have read the entire 3 opening posts, you would not have asked this question.

a reply to: TrueMessiah

If you read threads by "The Gut", "Miragemen" and various others,
the evidence for psyops are rather overwhelming.

Now I'm not saying that there there 'Isn't something out there',
but it's in the U.S. Government's great interest to make a
mountain out of a mole hill, or at least make a mountain
out of a hill.

I'll be happy to discuss this in another thread sometime.
I don't want to derail this one.

Kev

a reply to: _BoneZ_

*eye roll*

Your post is quite similar to the wikipedia article. But just to be fair,
I'll read your entire post again, and see if your comment was fair.

Kev

I am not buying that because all you posted about the V shaped formation is based entirely on the ASSUMPTION that what people saw was like some sort of optical illusion and that they were seeing stars through the surface. Somehow as some said, it doesn't sound like the full story.

Also "Thanks to the Air Force' regarding the signal lights - sounds like you are ready to digest anything that they tell you... really? So if they told you it is ice particles (even though that's mostly the explanation in outer space), you would believe them because they said so..

Also a whole UFO case was made because of some jets flying in formation, what on Earth is so secret about it, if it is not some top secret jets (and I understood the jets in V shaped formation weren't even any black project planes??) that they would make a whole myth out of it?? Ever thought of that?

Not saying aliens are flying around but it would have to be at least some rare, high tech plane or planes not seen and not known.. That I think is the case, I've never considered anything alien about Phoenix Lights but more like unknown secret project. And I didn't see this thread proving absolutely what it wanted to prove, more like just one opinion or possibility.

originally posted by: wmd_2008

originally posted by: Jay-morris

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Jay-morris
Astronomers have seen unexplained UFOs,

Sure they have but no where near the numbers of other people with less trained eyes.

because you have not, does not mean no astronomers have.

Guess you don't read my posts. I have posted more than a few times I saw two UFOs both of which turned out to be something odd at first but mundane in the end.

Also, what makes you think you should see more? You are looking at stars planets, moons etc, not the Sky.

Actually we amateur astronomers look at the sky quite a lot. As for professionals many observatories have wide angle all sky cameras for stuff like meteor showers.

More chance of a person looking up at the sky with the naked eye and seeing a UFO, than someone looking at stars, planets moons etc

Amateur astronomers often do naked eye astronomy....

Most UFOs can be explained, nothing special in you explaining yours. So, what's your eyes trained for? Planets, stars, comets, moons, aircraft?

Okay, I guess the case that involve pilots are more believable to you, as they are trained observers. Or does it only count if you are a debunkers.

I guess debunkers have super powered trained eyes to observe.

Yes many debunkers on here have trained eyes as you put it, because much of ufo/supposed alien craft's threads rely on photography/video many members on here have that as a long term hobby (me 35 yrs) or earn a living from it !

We even have our own thread on here were we post our efforts to photograph/video the objects in the night sky if you haven't seen it have a look.

Members Photographs

The equipment used on that thread varies from DSLR'S with various lenses, telescopes, even up to pro grade equipment not point and shoot compact cameras or camera phones which most ufo posts have been taken with.

I took my first image of the moon through a telescope with my manual film SLR 30+ years ago.

So we have a BETTER understanding of what we are looking at/and what to look for in an image, and also with claims made about objects in pictures/video and now with exif data many people get caught out talking BS re the subject.

If we think it's BS we say so and will normally give a reason why but with the same respect if we see something that we think is real we would back it.

There has to be other life out there it's a numbers thing BUT is any of it advanced enough or close enough to visit us I don't think so.

Nothing wrong with being skeptical. I am when it comes to UFOs being ET. But there are too many armchair debunkers and believers that just ruin the study of UFOs. Even experts, I have heard some rather perfetic explanations for certain cases. Not just from debunkers, but believers who will not change their mind.

My mind has been changed many times from thinking a case is unexplained, to believing it does have an explanation. That's all down to the people who studied the cases.

As long as your agenda is not run by belief like some debunkers and believers, then you can look at this subject with an open mind.

a reply to: _BoneZ_

I suspect that you will take this response as hostile; but it is not.

1) You are running roughshod over science by claiming you can put
this issue to bed; you can't. We can't even put the theory of gravity
to bed, or the theory of evolution. Granted the theory of evolution
is PROBABLY correct due to the hundreds of years of evidence
in it's favor. But your theory about the 'phoenix lights' does not
have this mountain of evidence. It's one of various competing
theories. Now granted, I find it more probably that this was
due to a military exercise myself, for the most part at least.

2) I read page one again, which has your main dissertation.
Nowhere did you mention Los Vegas, Henderson, Nevada
or even the abbreviation 'NV'. It sounds like you are suffering
from witness misidentification. Now perhaps the military
bases you are mentioned ARE near Los Vegas.. but that's
not what you said to me. I don't know if they are.. I have
never researched this particular psyop before.

3) Your comments on psyops would seem to a neutral
observer to simply be a way to deflect away a valid
conversational topic.

And no, I'm not trying to derail your thread.

But fairs fair. If you wish to claim that tens of thousands
of people are miserable observers, have poor logic and
reasoning, etc., then fine -- but you better bring your
A game.

And by the way -- you did a pretty good job with your
post, although simply reading wikipedia gives 80%
of your theory.... but I like that you
don't just roll over and say "It was aliens!".

Thanks for posting a brave post that will possibly
haunt you for years without resolution. Welcome
to the Aliens and UFOs forum (tongue in cheek).

Kev

a reply to: 111DPKING111

Most people are sincere.

But if you examine the "zero sum game" "Prisoners dilemma" psychological
studies you'll see that there always has been, and probably always will
be an element who want to pull the wool over people's eyes for self-gain.

This has nothing to do with good or evil or anything like that.

Humans are animals, and as animals some of us aren't so sincere.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

other than it was either
a purposeful psyop to feed UFO hysteria, or at the very least, the
military was plum off it's rockers to hold it's training exercises
during prime hours over a major city.

Lights have been seen over Phoenix since but didn't receive the attention of the 97 event , here's some more flares over Phoenix , these happened in 2011.


And these from 2013.


This one looks a bit like the giff of the first event posted by _BoneZ_ although I think in this case they may be lanterns , also from 2013

Phoenix lights 97 was UFO hysteria but I don't think the event was a Psyop .

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: GeisterFahrer

originally posted by: _BoneZ_

originally posted by: kurthall
a reply to: combatmaster

Including the government officials, said it was "other worldly". So yeah I tend to believe that this was not flairs.

But that would be their opinion, not a fact. The Air Force, as well as independent researchers, have already proven the second event was flares.

Do you mean they didn't use the weather balloon story this time? or swamp gas? Or maybe they could have spiced it up a bit and said that it was a reflection off the stratosphere from Venus maybe?

Two astronomers (you know, people who actually look at the sky ALOT) identified the flares and the planes. There's no mystery here except for people who want one.

Oh, I totally get what you are saying. The 'experts' had their say, and anyone whom is not an expert doesn't know what they saw. Including that under educated redneck rancher in Roswell that saw alien bodies. But since he wasn't an "expert" as in, a person who looked at alien bodies a lot, he didn't know what he saw. So the experts claimed that they were really just crash test dummies that had been on that weather balloon.

Totally plausible.

And experts should be believed, since they are experts right? Even when they are lying through their teeth about weather balloons?

a reply to: gortex

I can't say for certain either.

But if it wasn't an official psyop, the nonstop mass hysteria
over it has BECOME a self-perpetuating psyop.

The fact that the military knows that much of what they
do near population centers will cause such reactions
(I'm assuming they can read the newspapers or
google news?) and they still do so much stuff over
population centers, must mean that they wish for
this UFO mania to exist.

I wish they would do most of this kind of thing in the middle
of the desert, god knows they have huge tracts of land.

Kev

There is a picture of the affidavit at the link:

kevinrandle.blogspot.com...

(1) My Name is Thomas Jefferson DuBose. (2) My address is redacted. (3) I retired from the U.S. Air Force in 1959 with the rank of Brigadier General. (4) In July 1947, I was stationed at Fort Worth Army Air Field [later Carswell Air Force Base] in Fort Worth, Texas. I served as Chief of Staff to Major General (sic) Roger Ramey, Commander, Eighth Air Force. I had the rank of Colonel. (5) In early July, I received a phone call from Gen. Clements McMullen, Deputy Commander, Strategic Air Command. He asked what we knew about the object which had been recovered outside Roswell, New Mexico, as reported by the press. I called Col. William Blanchard, Commander of the Roswell Army Air Field and directed him to send the material in a sealed container to me at Fort Worth. I so informed Gen. McMullen. (6) After the plane from Roswell arrived with the material, I asked the Base Commander, Col. Al Clark to take possession of the material and to personally transport it in a B-26 to Gen. McMullen in Washington, D.C. I notified Gen. McMullen, and he told me he would send the material by personal courier to Benjamin Chidlaw, Commanding General of the Air Material Command at Wright Field [later Wright-Patterson AFB]. The entire operation was conducted under the strictest secrecy. (7) The material shown in the photographs taken in Gen. Ramey’s office was a weather balloon. The weather balloon explanation for the material was a cover story to divert the attention of the press. (8) I have not been paid anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

In other words, the military "experts" just flat out lied. But ... they should be trusted, right?

What's funny is that most folks are fairly intelligent.. and they can within moment figure out what something is. Unless it's so far away, that you can't make out details.. but even then, your brain says "Well.. that's probably some planes.." because of their formation or speed or whatever else.

In the Phoenix Lights case, there were many witnesses that reported seeing it fly directly overhead.. silently.. and as low as 100 feet, but being 700' feet + long. They watched it blot out the stars, and flying at a very slow speed. And yet the OP claims these people were just duped by an optical illusion, and by military planes apparently actually flying high in the sky.. so high that they were not even heard.

People see airplanes all the time. And formations of planes, either at air shows, or on TV. I don't believe for a moment that all the eyewitnesses were ALL duped by a high-flying formation of planes. To suggest that they were is ludicrous. If it were that easy to fool people, we'd see these sort of reports of giant UFOs -constantly-... every year in fact. There was no odd phenomena or secret nature of these planes that would have made them fool that many witnesses into thinking they were looking at a giant, silent, low-flying, triangular UFO. There were reports from people talking about the precise geometric edges on this object - this wouldn't even have been brought up if it were a flight of planes.

You may feel OP that you found the holy grail of proof with your optical illusion theory, but I think you are very, very far from the truth. You can't simply cherry pick the witnesses that back your claim, and ignore the rest.

No, no .. the "experts" want us to believe that they were planes and that people are stupid and can't make that discernment for themselves. otherwise, they would not be needed, and would not get paid to be 'experts" anymore.

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
2) I read page one again, which has your main dissertation.
Nowhere did you mention Los Vegas

That's because it's LAS Vegas, it is mentioned in the second post. It was quoted as the start of the sightings. Anyone who has researched the Phoenix Lights should know that the lights started getting reported near Las Vegas.

This is a moot point and not worth wasting any more time on.

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
If you wish to claim that tens of thousands of people are miserable observers...

Again with the "hundreds" or "thousands of people". There were only a dozen or so that claimed the lights were a solid object. If you know of a witness list that includes more than two dozen witnesses claiming the lights were a solid object, please post it here.

In the mean time, facts prove silly exaggerations are silly.

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
Thanks for posting a brave post that will possibly haunt you for years without resolution.

I'll never have to worry about anything haunting me. I fully realize that there will be those select few who want to believe in aliens so much that they will ignore the evidence and make up their own minds.

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
they still do so much stuff over population centers, must mean that they wish for this UFO mania to exist.

People are the cause of their own UFO hysteria or "mania". Some people looked up at the vee formation and said "planes" and went on about their business. Others said "UFO!!!" and went hysterical.

The military, or anyone else for that matter, cannot be held responsible for those people who want to claim "ALIENS!" or "UFO!!!" before they can think of something else.

originally posted by: fleabit
People see airplanes all the time. And formations of planes, either at air shows, or on TV.

You would think so, but that's still not enough. Numerous times have videos been posted here and all over YouTube showing simple planes or simple drones with LED lights, and some people will still swear up and down that it's an alien craft.

originally posted by: fleabit
I don't believe for a moment that all the eyewitnesses were ALL duped by a high-flying formation of planes.

No one ever said they were all duped. That's why most of the witnesses I posted all either thought the lights were planes, or they knew it wasn't a solid object.

originally posted by: fleabit
You can't simply cherry pick the witnesses that back your claim, and ignore the rest.

Actually, I can. There's no images or videos or any other proof what-so-ever that a large craft flew over Arizona. There is, however, plenty of proof that a formation of planes flew over Arizona during some sort of training at one Air Force Base, while Flares were dropped during a different exercise at another Air Force Base.

So yes, the witnesses who claim they saw a solid object can be discounted due to lack of evidence when the other witnesses who saw only planes or stars between the lights are corroborated by other evidence.

a reply to: _BoneZ_

Ok, I fully understand your mind-set now.

Noted.

But partially my bad.. I thought you were saying that the A10
warthogs and flares were being DROPPED ON Henderson/Vegas,
not just returning from a flight. I certainly saw nothing about
that on page one.

I've talked with supposed witnesses who say they saw huge,
low, utterly quiet classic black triangle UFOs in Henderson
at that time.. I thought you were just reusing your same
logic about sightings 300 miles away again.

I apologize for the confusion on this one point.

Kev

originally posted by: _BoneZ_
witnesses who claim they saw a solid object can be discounted due to lack of evidence

If multiple witnesses describe something similar from different locations and have never met and do not know each other and are not lying or in a conspiracy, how do you dismiss that easily?

So this was just flares and aircraft in formation and only a few witnesses said they saw a strange craft and caused all this?

Flares and planes don't usually cause this kind of thing do they?

I don't think the Phoenix Lights "myth" was laid to rest with this post. Its a good well thought out post, but too many eyewitnesses got a good look at this Boomerang platform/craft before it got too dark that night for me to believe otherwise. People that didn't know each other all explained the same exact thing regarding how this craft looked. That many people cannot be wrong, lying or hallucinating.

I think there really was a craft that night. I also believe that it was a Military/Government black project that people were seeing.