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originally posted by: joelr
originally posted by: Arbitrageur
Now that you have confirmed your own confabulation, I'd think you'd be more understanding that if it can happen to you, it can happen to others. It can happen to me and to any of us. I don't think you've fully appreciated this fact yet and until you do, you will continue to see the misidentification problems as bigger issues than they really are.
originally posted by: joelr
Maybe this is what confused me? ...
There are some other, bigger problems with the airplane misidentification theory also. It's a reasonable hypothesis but it's far from airtight.
Right but some of the witnesses were very clear about what they saw. The sightings started in Las Vegas much earlier so there are daylight sightings also.
Another problem is how do 1000's of people report a giant ufo that is really planes on one day and then never again before or after?
The police dispatcher confirmed that she had 100's of calls and the Phoenix councilwoman reported over 1000 calls over the next few weeks regarding that one night. If they were planes there would be other reports of similar sightings. If planes could cause that illusion it would happen again. Planes did a flyover and dropped flares to show people what it looked like and no one claimed it looked like the triangle thing.
Another things is close to 100% of the reports say there were very large, red-orange lights, approx 15 feet in diameter on the underside of the thing and many reports of the lights being sunken back like in a well. They also say the lights projected no beam like a search light but was more like a glowing orb.
If you go with the plane hypothesis we at least need a plane with large red/orange globes on the underside. That doesn't exist. Planes are made to land without landing gear in case of emergency.
An airline pilot who saw the triangle confirms what many others have said - it took about 15 minutes to pass overhead and was far to slow to be any airplane. There are no varying reports on those details.
This really sounds like a military secret or something from somewhere else.
Again, the Illinois sighting by all those police officers suggests that it's likely there are triangle crafts flying around silently, slow and can accelerate quickly.
originally posted by: Arbitrageur
a reply to: joelr
The witness doesn't even know what date that happened and they changed the date he reported, to match the date of the Phoenix lights.
That's not what I would call a strong data point for the Phoenix lights event when the date the witness reported was a different date. Not only that he reported it 10 years later which is absolutely stale information. it's been documented in other UFO sightings that witnesses have huge discrepancies even as soon as 3 weeks after the event with what actually happened.
How could the guy have not heard of Phoenix lights since it was all over newspapers and TV? Was he living in a cave?
The whole thing is highly questionable at best and it doesn't make much sense to assign much weight to such a report.
UNLESS.....Art Bell needed some juicy show material and called these guys and said "make some crap up, get some fake witnesses, etc..."
Agreed, the reality of human misperception is far beyond the understanding of most people, as in this mass sighting where people have also singled out exceptional witness statements that don't match facts in an attempt to say something else was going on. However these attempts fail, because if there was both a UFO and a satellite, they should have seen both. They only reported the UFO. At least 30 people saw this one:
originally posted by: Scdfa
There really is no reason to make anything up, when it comes to alien sightings and contact. The reality of it is far more fascinating than fiction.
UFO "Mothership" sighted from the Klondike Highway, Yukon Territory, Dec. 11, 1996.
If you're referring to the pilot who said something along the lines of "I was there and I'm part of the flight that dropped the flares", there's not much opportunity for misperception on his part. But everybody on the ground who saw those lights and didn't know what they were looking at have plenty of opportunity for misperception. If that same officer who dropped the flares had been on the ground instead, trying to figure out what the lights were, then yes he's just as human as everybody else and if he doesn't know it's a plane dropping flares he might not recognize it as such. It's a different experience inside the cockpit, compared to the ground, though if he's more familiar with flares, as a ground observer he might stand a better chance of recognizing them as such than the average person.
originally posted by: SwampgasIsTheAnswer
a reply to: Arbitrageur
Human misperception would then naturally also be applied to the military right?
Are you saying because they aren't bright enough, or they are bright enough to be seen at that distance, but would be blocked by the mountain range? What model number of flares are you talking about, flares is a very general term and some flares can't be seen at 60 miles away and some flares can.
originally posted by: skyeagle409
I was familiar with the Phoenix area as well and knew full well that flares cannot be seen from the Barry Goldwater Range from 60-70 miles away.
Even in this case there wasn't much clearance above the mountain tops when the flares were dropped, that's why they appeared to "wink out" when they disappeared behind the mountain range.
The range has been in operation since the 1940's and there were many flare drops over the range since that time and yet, most Phoenix residents have never seen such flares dropped over the BGR.
Are you saying because they aren't bright enough, or they are bright enough to be seen at that distance, but would be blocked by the mountain range? What model number of flares are you talking about, flares is a very general term and some flares can't be seen at 60 miles away and some flares can.
Even in this case there wasn't much clearance above the mountain tops when the flares were dropped, that's why they appeared to "wink out" when they disappeared behind the mountain range.
If they made 50 earlier flights at slightly lower altitudes, the mountains would have blocked the visibility, but that doesn't stop them from making another flight at a higher altitude where the mountains don't initially block the visibility.
The most disturbing part of your post to me is that there's no sign you even reviewed the evidence for flares in the opening post because you didn't respond to that evidence.
What part number were they and what part number were the flares dropped near Phoenix? As I said "flares" is a broad term and you've shown no indication you are aware of the different classes of flares, a mistake often made by people in this case who think they know what a flare is, but seem to be unaware there are other types of flares.
originally posted by: skyeagle409
a reply to: wmd_2008
I have physically seen flares on hundreds occasions, especially during the TeT offensive in Vietnam.