NLBS #34: EMF Sensitivity Syndrome Is Nothing But Junk Science and Misinformation

I think your making obtuse assumptions with no real clear and concise evidence and nothing linked or mentioned as source material.

a reply to: Bedlam

I was not talking about background radiation. I was talking about lets say plutonium for whatever reason is in your home. A few hot particles around your home and yard could expose you to all sorts of radiation over a long duration.

Now i am not saying that WIFI is causing cancer either. I Simply believe that without long term observation and deep analysis of peoples medical histories we don't have the full picture so its too soon to jump to any conclusions.

As for people emitting microwaves, i didn't know that.

originally posted by: theMediator

originally posted by: Bedlam
eta: it's MY opinion that there are quite a few researchers who'd love to find something like this, but haven't been able to substantiate it.

Well there are many out there but you know...

originally posted by: Bedlam
"...it's only trustworthy if it agrees with your feelings?"

Pot calling kettle black now...

Not at all...show me some valid unambiguous research that says non-ionizing EMF at wifi levels is bad for you. I'll wait.

I'm not talking rex research, tecleyapades or educate yourself, either.

originally posted by: shaneslaughta
a reply to: Bedlam

I was not talking about background radiation. I was talking about lets say plutonium for whatever reason is in your home. A few hot particles around your home and yard could expose you to all sorts of radiation over a long duration.

But it's your metaphor. You're exposed to radio frequency energy all day long. And from natural as well as manmade sources. And have been all your life.

Pu is an alpha emitter. If it was properly plated, I'd be fine with a big ol' chunk of it being in my home. I just wouldn't want any of it getting about as a chemical contaminant. It's way more dangerous as a heavy metal than as a radiation source. As long as it's Navy grade, of course, the crappier grades of it have enough Pu240 to be an issue.

Now i am not saying that WIFI is causing cancer either. I Simply believe that without long term observation and deep analysis of peoples medical histories we don't have the full picture so its too soon to jump to any conclusions.

As for people emitting microwaves, i didn't know that.

But 10cm transmitters have been around forever. Wifi doesn't make them different in some way.

a reply to: Bedlam

Well, I do as well, 40 years of experience, patents, copyrights, so I calls it as I sees it. IMHO, it's a parroted OP with no foundation in reality based on hype from a series of opinion pieces.

Cheers - Dave

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: Bedlam

Well, I do as well, 40 years of experience, patents, copyrights, so I calls it as I sees it. IMHO, it's a parroted OP with no foundation in reality based on hype from a series of opinion pieces.

Cheers - Dave

In part I agree with you...I don't believe in fibromyalgia. But as far as low level non-ionizing radiation causing some sort of health issue, the science doesn't agree with you. The studies always come back ambiguous, non repeatable. If it was a big hairy deal, you'd expect the bad things to show right up and be obvious. They're not.

originally posted by: ParasuvO
a reply to: Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Try living 20 meters from them, which is an entirely different story.

The utter bs comes from those who make ridiculous comparisons.

If you lived 20 meters from high tension power lines, they would nearly be on top of you or in your back yard.. 20 meters is like the distance from my balcony door to the other side of our small side street. You were a lot further away than that, because you would be having serious electrical interference constantly in your house if they were so close. Not to mention, I've never heard of power companies being allowed to build them that close where a cable could just fall on your house in case of disaster.

Where I lived was the closest I have ever seen houses near the high tension lines, and I am using the 200 hundred meter estimate as a rough one (I used the soccer field as my unit of measurement, and we were about the length of two soccer fields away, likely a little more. But we were as close to them as I have ever seen anyone live. And at that distance, the only time you noticed the annoying loud buzz/hum from the lines was during certain weather conditions. If you walked closer to them, you could sometimes get a little whiff from the ozone right near them (again, only during certain weather conditions, mainly, humid days).

Now ozone can certainly make you sick if you breathe in a lot, but I don't know if enough of the stuff is produced or concentrated at those levels near power lines.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
Money talks, "science" listens.

So, in your opinion, it's only trustworthy if it agrees with your feelings?

I'm not sure outside the Tobacco Institute if any modern research showed cigarettes were good for you, either. And radio's been going for many, many years. And electric power. You'd think that "big electricity" or whatever would have a hard time silencing EVERY scientist since Tesla and Edison.

eta: it's MY opinion that there are quite a few researchers who'd love to find something like this, but haven't been able to substantiate it.

Not my feelings, my experiences. I know a family who moved into a townhouse that had WAPA lines running within a few hundred feet of their home. Zero health issues before moving there, within a week of moving in the wife beame a daily sufferer of migraines, suddenly had all manner of skin problems, and was diagnosed with anxiety disorder. Within a year the husband was diagnosed with a form of nervous system cancer. On a more personal note, my son was having serious issues sleeping and having some pretty bad night terrors... my wife noted that our electric meter was on the other side of the wall from the head of his bed and the inner wall next to his bed had the fuse box. We moved his bed to the opposite side of his room... sleeps like an angel, has a nightmare maybe once every 3 months at most. I am personally very sensitive to flourescent lights (This is exaccerbated by a medical eye disease I have), in fact my work office has every bulb removed and I use a desk lamp exclusively.

I am not suggesting "big electricity" has a damn thing to do with any of this. I would suggest "Big government" is much more to blame. We live in an electronic surveilance society. How would our overlords track us if not for cell phones, smart meters, and the like? How would the messages to consume and OBEY reach us all if not for radio, television, and computers? Let's be honest, virtually anyone who embraces electronics is going to benefit from the dismissal of any link between EMF and negative health impacts... which makes pretty much everyone's opinion and study on the issue biased.

(Oh, and the "just one scientist" theory... how's that worked in regards to the global warming ridiculousness? The instant any scientist has broken rank and file, they've been shouted down, silenced, and this farcical "concensus" has been pointed at again. The idea that modern scientific organizations, especially ones buttressed by governments, are anything other than kept whores of the machine is laughable.)

a reply to: Bedlam

Yes but never before have these transmitters been so densely packed in populated areas. Like for instance my apartment. I have over thirty wireless networks in range of me. Thorough a brick and aluminum building to neighboring apartment buildings.

That is just access points that are broadcasting SSID. That dose not even count cellphones with WIFI and wireless access cards. There are way more transmitters per square mile than ever before.

We just don't know what it does to the human body yet in such low powered but dense quantities.

Can't some insects sense these EMF fields?

I remember seeing a study or two that seems suggest this.

I do think some of us may be sensitive to EMF fields. Maybe some of us will evolve into making sense of the extra information that we are bombarded with.

Sweden one of the earliest countries to use mobile phones....

www.bioinitiative.org...

BioInitiative 2012 Report Issues New Warnings on Wireless and EMF

A new report by the BioInitiative Working Group 2012 says that evidence for risks to health has substantially increased since 2007 from electromagnetic fields and wireless technologies (radiofrequency radiation). The Report reviews over 1800 new scientific studies. Cell phone users, parents-to-be, young children and pregnant women are at particular risk.

There is a consistent pattern of increased risk for glioma (a malignant brain tumor) and acoustic neuroma with use of mobile and cordless phones” says Lennart Hardell, MD at Orebro University, Sweden. “Epidemiological evidence shows that radiofrequency should be classified as a human carcinogen. The existing FCC/IEE and ICNIRP public safety limits and reference levels are not adequate to protect public health.”

a reply to: theNLBS

This thread is complete BS
I know people who are completely affected with debilitating headaches with merely cell phones

I don't care what OP says. Seeing is believing

It's like some guy in a bar saying bears don't exist while just yesterday you saw one while fishing

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

Not my feelings, my experiences. I know a family who moved into a townhouse that had WAPA lines running within a few hundred feet of their home. Zero health issues before moving there, within a week of moving in the wife beame a daily sufferer of migraines, suddenly had all manner of skin problems, and was diagnosed with anxiety disorder. Within a year the husband was diagnosed with a form of nervous system cancer.

Yet, that's a big disturbance. How do you know, out of the millions of variables introduced that it HAD to be the powerlines and nothing else? Couldn't be because of WHY they had to move, or something in the new home like carpet outgassing, or the neighbors, or just about anything else?

On a more personal note, my son was having serious issues sleeping and having some pretty bad night terrors... my wife noted that our electric meter was on the other side of the wall from the head of his bed and the inner wall next to his bed had the fuse box. We moved his bed to the opposite side of his room... sleeps like an angel, has a nightmare maybe once every 3 months at most.

Same sort of problems - maybe the stray light is different on that side of the room with the lights off. That's the issue with anecdotal evidence - not only are there way too many uncontrolled variables, but I also imagine you guys talked about the power meter between you and your wife and your son heard that, maybe interpreted it as 'moving him away from something bad' and that alone could have changed his behavior.

In a lab setting, you'd be able to switch the box on and off without the subject knowing, and that would reduce that sort of problem. And you'd have a sample of more than 1.

I am personally very sensitive to flourescent lights (This is exaccerbated by a medical eye disease I have), in fact my work office has every bulb removed and I use a desk lamp exclusively.

I can see the damned things flicker. Some people can. I couldn't watch DLP televisions with light wheels either.

I am not suggesting "big electricity" has a damn thing to do with any of this. I would suggest "Big government" is much more to blame. We live in an electronic surveilance society. How would our overlords track us if not for cell phones, smart meters, and the like?

How did they manage when I was a kid? Didn't have wifi all that long ago.

How would the messages to consume and OBEY reach us all if not for radio, television, and computers? Let's be honest, virtually anyone who embraces electronics is going to benefit from the dismissal of any link between EMF and negative health impacts... which makes pretty much everyone's opinion and study on the issue biased.

And that's why you do double blinded tests. And quite frankly, they don't show that EMF sufferers can detect RF in controlled settings.

The idea that modern scientific organizations, especially ones buttressed by governments, are anything other than kept whores of the machine is laughable.)

I've been left off the list, apparently. We used to do a lot of commercial work, albeit most of it at a 'meta' level - we spent a year teaching people like Sony how to design with a really large vendors' laptop chipsets, for example - but now we're almost solely unkempt whores of the machine. Which could be a catchy metal title.

originally posted by: shaneslaughta
We just don't know what it does to the human body yet in such low powered but dense quantities.

Low powered and dense still = low powered. A few microwatts per square meter total of uncorrelated RF from a number of sources doesn't add up to much.

It's swamped out by the 60Hz background noise of the power grid, for example.

originally posted by: TryAndStopTheFuture555
a reply to: theNLBS

This thread is complete BS
I know people who are completely affected with debilitating headaches with merely cell phones

I don't care what OP says. Seeing is believing

People used to be (and not that long ago, historically) convinced that a few grains of wheat and an old cloth would turn into mice if you put them in a dark closet. Wasn't until Pasteur that was finally laid to rest. Seeing is misunderstanding for a lot of people, most of the time.

It's like some guy in a bar saying bears don't exist while just yesterday you saw one while fishing

It's more like you see something brown and mushy. You decide, because everyone else has seen it here and there, that it's #, and yours looks sort of like that. So you look around, and see bears, and deer, and squirrels, and bobcats, and you decide with no other input that it must be bear #, because it looks a little like # and you saw a bear. Your buddies all agree, also with no input other than yours, and go around pointing out the bear # to everyone. Teams of wildlife management people look at it, and the Swedish one says "Börk Börk Börk. Ehula Hule de Chokolad Muus.” A few nod knowingly. The wildlife team, half of whom are PETA advocates who'd like nothing more than to have the entire area declared a wildlife sanctuary and off limits due to the Pumpernickel Spotted Oak Bark Screwworm that makes its home in bear #, or whatever they can concoct, fail to determine that it's bear #, although they couch the results in a lot of weasel wording that makes it obvious they think it might be but can't prove it. The rest aren't sure. So the EPA declares it a class 3 # pile, which means "we don't know what it is, or what dropped it,but don't step in it".

The CT sites run with it, carefully removing the class 3 part and simply stating "The EPA has declared it!!1!". Others will post generic pictures of #, and subtitle it 'Swedes say Börk Börk Börk. Ehula Hule de Chokolad Muus...FROM SPACE'. And # sensitive people, or those who think they might be, will swoon at little heaps of rabbit pellets in their gardens. Some will establish a #proof zone in the Appalachians. And a big cadre of blood suckers will sell them plastic disposable shoe covers and "#-away" alien # repellent.

In the meantime, a cow waddles through the woods. Moo.

originally posted by: Bedlam
It's swamped out by the 60Hz background noise of the power grid, for example.

LOL... if this was true I wouldn't get cell phone coverage or wifi, however it does give SETI fits in the harmonic range....

Lots of scientific studies on cell phone exposure etc. here .... and you think they are saying Börk Börk Börk. Ehula Hule de Chokolad Muus.... hahaha yeah right.... look at the list of scientist, they're from all over the world.

I guess your one of those types who are resonant at government frequencies, maybe you need to visit a foreign neurotoxicologist.... your showing signs of to much EMF.

enjoy your Sesame Street....
--imatator

originally posted by: imitator

originally posted by: Bedlam
It's swamped out by the 60Hz background noise of the power grid, for example.

LOL... if this was true I wouldn't get cell phone coverage or wifi, however it does give SETI fits in the harmonic range....

Your cell phone is selective. Your body is not. In terms of voltage, 60Hz is orders of magnitude larger on your body. eta: "the harmonic range" sounds sciency, but is misused here. "Harmonic" is one of those terms, though, like "field", "energy", "vibration" and "frequency". You really should have hummed in "Tesla", too, in order to hit the entire bingo card.

hahaha yeah right.... look at the list of scientist, they're from all over the world.

And, I suppose you've read the many, many comments on the lack of believability of bioinitiative?

Oh, here's one...

"The ACRBR also points out there are statements in the report that do not accord with the standard view of science, and the report does not provide a reasonable account of why we should reject the standard view in favour of the views espoused in the report."

When a science group states that your papers "do not accord with the standard view of science", it's the polite way of saying you're a bunch of crackpots.

It's really readable - and a pretty much scathing indictment of your source - here. (warning...pdf)

I guess your one of those types who are resonant at government frequencies, maybe you need to visit a foreign neurotoxicologist.... your showing signs of to much EMF.

I guess you're one of those types who can't really tell me what "frequency" means outside of the new age version...

originally posted by: Bedlam

It's more like you see something brown and mushy. You decide, because everyone else has seen it here and there, that it's #, and yours looks sort of like that. So you look around, and see bears, and deer, and squirrels, and bobcats, and you decide with no other input that it must be bear #, because it looks a little like # and you saw a bear. Your buddies all agree, also with no input other than yours, and go around pointing out the bear # to everyone. Teams of wildlife management people look at it, and the Swedish one says "Börk Börk Börk. Ehula Hule de Chokolad Muus.” A few nod knowingly. The wildlife team, half of whom are PETA advocates who'd like nothing more than to have the entire area declared a wildlife sanctuary and off limits due to the Pumpernickel Spotted Oak Bark Screwworm that makes its home in bear #, or whatever they can concoct, fail to determine that it's bear #, although they couch the results in a lot of weasel wording that makes it obvious they think it might be but can't prove it. The rest aren't sure. So the EPA declares it a class 3 # pile, which means "we don't know what it is, or what dropped it,but don't step in it".

The CT sites run with it, carefully removing the class 3 part and simply stating "The EPA has declared it!!1!". Others will post generic pictures of #, and subtitle it 'Swedes say Börk Börk Börk. Ehula Hule de Chokolad Muus...FROM SPACE'. And # sensitive people, or those who think they might be, will swoon at little heaps of rabbit pellets in their gardens. Some will establish a #proof zone in the Appalachians. And a big cadre of blood suckers will sell them plastic disposable shoe covers and "#-away" alien # repellent.

In the meantime, a cow waddles through the woods. Moo.

Just OMG, i laughed my lungs out, i love the way its laid out. Among other your posts, good stuff.

About the OP, i have nothing valuable to input. Just an offtopicish story..

I witnessed something what boggled my mind since. My friend was driving on a highway, while speaking on the mobile. She was just going through a section, where power lines crossed the road. When she was "on the crossing", she felt some electrocuting-like sense in her head and by instinct, threw her phone to the car floor next to her. Kicker is that those lines were installed just months prior happening, plus they are hanging on lowest part on the crossing point. I've urged her to report the happening to power company and/or some health officials.

No idea what was going on there.

a reply to: Bedlam

Sorry bud, not interested in your so called knowledge on the subject.

It's like a man telling me tomorrow is Wednesday when I checked the calendar 3 times and it is showing tomorrow is Sunday

There is simply no discussion

originally posted by: TryAndStopTheFuture555
a reply to: Bedlam

Sorry bud, not interested in your so called knowledge on the subject.

It's like a man telling me tomorrow is Wednesday when I checked the calendar 3 times and it is showing tomorrow is Sunday

There is simply no discussion

The problem is, you've got the wrong date, so you think it's Saturday when it's Tuesday. Every NIST station is telling you it's Tuesday. But you want it to be Saturday, so that's what you decide is true.

You're right - there IS simply no discussion, because no one's been able to show that there is an issue.