Listen Muslims/Islam

originally posted by: BlackNWhite

If you want to win this war without a fight than stop bombing muslim countries every decade,stop overthrowing their governments,stop supporting Israel at everything they do,stop droning weddings and funurals and stop being a f hypocrite.

WOAH. I'm NOT going to let this pass.

1). I do not participate or support attacking ANY country. I WILL support it if these attacks of soft targets continue. That is kind of the point - these attacks are turning those who DO NOT support the behaviours of their governments AGAINST those who they previously spoke up in support of. Those who've spoken up HAVE had some effect on moderating the extent to which these governments have acted. Their future silence will have dire consequences.


2). I DO NOT support Israel. I think it is one of the most disgusting nations on the planet. Depending on where you are from (and I have no idea), you may not be aware but in many western nations, when you criticise Israel you're labelled as anti-semitic. Its repulsive.

3). Returning to point one, I do not support attacks in foreign nations. HOWEVER, I WILL if this continues. Killing "legitimate" targets by drones does not fit in with my view at present but it WILL.

4). DO NOT presume to tell people that if they don't comply with demands issued by those murdering civilians who have NOTHING to do with the acts of their governments will push western people into cowering and giving in. That is NOT what we do.

Here in the UK we're definitely one of the most tolerant nations on earth to people of other faiths and backgrounds. We do not restrict their speech even when verbally "attacking us" in our own country but we will only take so much bloodshed.

a reply to: citizenx1

As long as there have been guns, people have used/misused them to brutally kill others.

As long as there has been religion, people have used/misused it to brutally kill others.

Guns are not the problem. People using/misusing them are the problem. Most people who own guns are responsible with them and don't kill anyone. We shouldn't hold those people responsible in any way for what the bad people do with guns.

Islam is not the problem. People using/misusing it are the problem. Most people who follow Islam are peaceful and don't kill anyone. We shouldn't hold those Muslims responsible in any way for what the bad people do in Islam's name.

You should possibly start a thread on solution ATS members have for the extremist muslim Islamists. It would be best to find solutions that didn't create more terrorists in the process

a reply to: citizenx1

And the west will keep pushing to get its war .. have fun on the frontlines fighting for your masters .. if you survive they might let you lick their boots as reward for being a good slave of the state...

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: citizenx1

As long as there have been guns, people have used/misused them to brutally kill others.

As long as there has been religion, people have used/misused it to brutally kill others.

Guns are not the problem. People using/misusing them are the problem. Most people who own guns are responsible with them and don't kill anyone. We shouldn't hold those people responsible in any way for what the bad people do with guns.

I agree. I fully endorse the rights of people to own guns. The British state doesn't but as politics is cyclical, I dare say it will one day.

Islam is not the problem. People using/misusing it are the problem. Most people who follow Islam are peaceful and don't kill anyone. We shouldn't hold those Muslims responsible in any way for what the bad people do in Islam's name.

This has always been my view and remains such BUT i want to hear this from them rather than from us westerners making assumptions to fill in the silence we get from Islamic nations. Doesn't have to be every time but all I've seen from those nations are protests demanding more bloodshed on Charlie Hebdo. That doesn't really fit in with this perspective.

I'm afraid to say that silence speaks volumes.

originally posted by: Expat888
a reply to: citizenx1

And the west will keep pushing to get its war .. have fun on the frontlines fighting for your masters .. if you survive they might let you lick their boots as reward for being a good slave of the state...

I'm all for criticising the many failings of the west but let me ask you this: Was it "the west" who went a shot dead a number of innocent people in France? Was it "the west" who blew up buses and trains in London? Was it "the west" who flew planes into office blocks in the US? Was it "the west" who attacked Bali and other places closer to you?

Lets not let our disdain for the acts of the western world excuse or diminish the disgusting attacks against innocent people going about their business. That is to do them an injustice.

a reply to: citizenx1

The above response from yourself is the beginning of the turning of the tide.

I'm with you all the way, I don't wish to go to war with anyone.

BUT

I'm not going to stand back and see the western nations I love so much continue to be attacked indiscriminately by a bunch of thugs proclaiming they are doing it in the name of Allah either.

Islam needs to understand we don't want to quarrel with them, but provoke us enough and we WILL mobilise against them.

As for Israel, it is a blight on the face of this earth. Jews as a people have a right to exist, but as the bible shows, history always repeats for them and when they get their land back they get too big for their own boots. The UN should never have allowed it's recreation after WW2, but it has become a monster that we cannot stop. As far as I am concerned it should be left to it's own fate and I would not support any intervention but I would give the ones bright enough to leave refuge.

originally posted by: Expat888
Any idiot with half a brain would have known better.

The liberal West have a tradition for satire. In England, religion has been satirised for centuries, often at great risk to the satirists.

Muslims need to find a less violent way to protest their differece of cultural perspective. However, there are so many differences and divisions across the Muslim world where violence and brutality is the outcome e.g. Sunni verses Shia, that freedom of speech is a sideshow excuse.

Regards

Saying everything is fine in the Quran is like telling an alcoholoic there is no problem. There is a difference between Quran and other religions holy text like Sikhs, Buddhism, and Jesus teachings. Islam teaches that Christianety have been corrupted and I agree with that but muslims do not want to look their own corruption in the eye and fix it.

Lets take a parable of non duality. Non duality is taught by both Jesus, Buddha, Nanak and Rumi (Sufi mystic) to make a few example.

This is what a muslim on this site told me the Quran said.



This is a pure non duality parable.

What do the Quran really say.

quran.com...

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

This is a corrupted version of non duality where you by defining corruption to your liking you can kill any person and use scripture to justify it. Muhammad did not rise above the ego predatory and killed people.

If Islam want to be regarded as having pure non dualistic teachings, then create uncorrupted doctrines that cannot be used in corrupts ways, so the wolf cannot call itself a sheep and hide among the sheep that are not ego predatory.

To those with muslim faith:
Do not let a book written 1300 years ago hold you back. If Christianety can reform/evolve then so can you. If you want Islam to teach non duality create an Islam that do it.

Why should we continue to condemn these actions?

Because as always someone comes along and says we don't, or its not enough...



Most Muslims are tired of having to express its not done in our name or for our religion...




Do you think one protest in 2003 is enough to condemn Western government actions in the Middle East?

Why don't you protest every single Airstrike?
Every single drone attack?
Every single theft of resources?
Every single military rape?
Every single government overthrow?
And so on...


If not then you really have no position to complain or demand more from Muslims!

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs
What he said.

It's insulting to think they should have to. Yet the insight into the thought processes on display here is pretty illuminating too.

originally posted by: citizenx1



This has always been my view and remains such BUT i want to hear this from them rather than from us westerners making assumptions to fill in the silence we get from Islamic nations. Doesn't have to be every time but all I've seen from those nations are protests demanding more bloodshed on Charlie Hebdo. That doesn't really fit in with this perspective.

I'm afraid to say that silence speaks volumes.

www.asianews.it...

www.asianews.it...

chronicle.com...

a reply to: citizenx1

Try looking for it instead of sitting there waiting for it to come to you?

Maybe this thread will help...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Lots of examples in there.

Further more...

Muhammad represents Muslims...
We will speak out against insults against him...


The jerks in Paris do not...
We have no obligation to even consider them in our daily lives...



The biggest hypocrisy of all is this "we can insult religion all we want, freedom of speech, blah blah blah..."

As soon as a Muslim says it's an insult the tables turn and people say "just leave it alone, let us say what we want..." which is akin to shut the hell up and accept it...


Well no, because that freedom of speech you pioneer also belongs to us and if we want to say you're a bunch of insulting pricks with a lack of intellect with which to entertain yourself tough s#!!!

a reply to: kaylaluv

Yep.

And every single Muslim person I know condemns this stuff daily, but it will never be enough for some people. The problem is more that no one is listening or noticing because they're so damn hyperfocused on what the news and the websites they visit want them to see and believe and so scared that they have lost all perspective.

a reply to: citizenx1

Do I expect people of Islamic nations to say sorry? No. I DO expect them to say "we don't agree with this, it isn't in our name" BECAUSE without such comments, we must conclude it IS something they support.

They have been you just haven't been paying attention. Not to mention the western MSM is geared toward spreading the Muslims wants to kill us propaganda to make it easier for the west to invade Muslim nations even though those nations did nothing to the west.

We'll be using a cruise missles against a donkey carrying a few AK-47's.

Again you haven't been paying attention. Quite a few of these Muslim nations have oil and with the money they get from that oil they have been buying the best weapons the west will sell. If an all out war were to break out against the Muslim world and the west and you think it will be cruise missiles vs donkey's with AK-47's then you are totally clueless. Just the way the western leaders want you to be.

Mind you, the bigger threat in the west are sleeper cells in our towns and cities but in such a war, we'd take up arms and they wouldn't have any soft targets.

Yeah right that would require these fat lazy couch potatoes to actually get off their fat asses and do something. If it were 20 to 30 years ago I would agree with you but today the general population is nothing but a soft target. Don't think just because you see a bunch of people carrying rifles out in public that they will be any good in combat when the bullets are flying and you have a chance of dying everything changes.

originally posted by: neformore
a reply to: citizenx1

Try looking for it instead of sitting there waiting for it to come to you?

Maybe this thread will help...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Lots of examples in there.

originally posted by: stargatetravels

originally posted by: citizenx1

originally posted by: stargatetravels
Wow just what ATS needs, another stupid, ignorant & absurd thread/post asking for all Muslims to take to the streets and condemn the attacks.

Thanks for that insightful analysis.

Care to explain why you say that or not?

There are dozens of posts and threads saying the same thing and just as many responses saying why it's preposterous to expect all moderate Muslims to come out matching & denouncing it.
Did all moderate Christians come out saying 'not in our name ' when Anders Breivik murdered all of those people, he was a devout Christian and explicitly cited his Christianity as a reason for his hatred and actions.

The answer is no they didn't.

Why start another thread, why not just reply in one of the others and you'll find the responses you require, rubishing and dissecting your 'case' entirely.

Actually he did not do his terrorist attack based on his Christian belief. He hated what one political part had done to Norway, and he attacked the party (tried to anyway). He was a moron. He didn't know that most of the politicians were on holiday. There were only a few people left. Most of which where government employees.

And he went on to kill innocent children.

Source: I am from Norway. My brother knew many of the people that were killed.

originally posted by: stargatetravels
asking for all Muslims to take to the streets and condemn the attacks.

Considering , and someone already mentioned it, we the people who have almost no real power at all always go out on the streets and protest because that is all we have -> the power of many

i am asking you, regarding your comment, WHY NOT?