Flordia To Vote For Concealed Carry On College Campuses

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: NOTurTypical

1. as there are more guns it is easier for criminals and those that are not allowed to get them....

2.there is more gun crime per capita than a country that has made guns illegal or at least harder to get

3.this may be the case but there is also a reason law enforcement are getting an itchy trigger finger and that would be because everyone they encounter could potentially be packing heat

You missed a MASSIVELY huge point I made.

Making guns illegal will ONLY prevent law abiding citizens from owning them, not criminals. Just as making drugs illegal doesn't prevent people from getting high who want to get high.

a reply to: TinkerHaus

i have seen this over and over and more forums than this one....Americans are very proud gun owners and would not have it any other way.......and for some reason refuse to see the connection between more guns and more gun violence...of course there is a greater possibility for self defense,but at the same time more possibility for violence ...it is a never ending cycle

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: TinkerHaus

i have seen this over and over and more forums than this one....Americans are very proud gun owners and would not have it any other way.......and for some reason refuse to see the connection between more guns and more gun violence...of course there is a greater possibility for self defense,but at the same time more possibility for violence ...it is a never ending cycle

I'm not sure how I could have been cleared.. Let me try again.

We're not at all refusing the see the connection between more guns and more gun crime. Yes, more guns = more GUN crime.

But what about the overall rate of violent crime? Does it go up when you remove guns? Are criminals emboldened to attack an old lady for her purse on the street when they know no one has guns? It would appear in many cases that violent crimes and sexual assaults do in fact increase when you take guns away from law abiding people.

There is not MORE possibility for violence - this is why I told you that it's either ignorance or an agenda that leads media and government to use the rate of gun crime instead of looking at the overall rate of violent and sexual crimes.

Does this make sense or should I try another way?

a reply to: NOTurTypical

i do get your point i just do not agree with it.....much like responsible gun owners lock their guns away that does not stop kids from finding them and shooting themselves

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Additionally, your avatar indicates you believe in a New World Order. Do you believe there is a shadow government out there that wishes to govern the world? I'm not too far away from you there..

Imagine how much easier it would be to accomplish this goal if all civilians were disarmed? Hitler disarmed the Jewish people before rounding them up and, well, you know how that turned out.

The most important reason for the Second Amendment is not to be able to defend one's self from common criminals, but from the criminals who would attempt to keep the entire world under their thumbs. If you truly believe that there are men and women out there trying to create a "New World Order" you should be a very staunch supporter of our right to keep and bear arms.

a reply to: TinkerHaus

if what you are saying is correct why has there not been a massive increase of violent crime here in australia when guns were taken of the street ?

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: TinkerHaus

if what you are saying is correct why has there not been a massive increase of violent crime here in australia when guns were taken of the street ?

Did I say it was a "massive" increase?

Why don't you look at the figured and find out what happened when guns were taken from good, honest people in Australia?

a reply to: TinkerHaus

Additionally, your avatar indicates you believe in a New World Order. Do you believe there is a shadow government out there that wishes to govern the world? I'm not too far away from you there.. Imagine how much easier it would be to accomplish this goal if all civilians were disarmed?

now here we agree....citizens almost certainly need the ability to defend themselves from a corrupt government ....here in aus many many guns have been buried and i can assure you if the government gets heavy handed they will be met with force from the free people......

my issue here lies with the nature of this thread which is about bringing concealed weapons into schools...the idea of having more guns on the street or in a school for that matter is just playing out a cycle of fear and intimidation...it is a cycle that has no end

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: TinkerHaus

Additionally, your avatar indicates you believe in a New World Order. Do you believe there is a shadow government out there that wishes to govern the world? I'm not too far away from you there.. Imagine how much easier it would be to accomplish this goal if all civilians were disarmed?

now here we agree....citizens almost certainly need the ability to defend themselves from a corrupt government ....here in aus many many guns have been buried and i can assure you if the government gets heavy handed they will be met with force from the free people......

my issue here lies with the nature of this thread which is about bringing concealed weapons into schools...the idea of having more guns on the street or in a school for that matter is just playing out a cycle of fear and intimidation...it is a cycle that has no end

I don't see an issue. I know it's not definitive evidence, but we allow concealed carry in all of our schools in Utah, and we have very little crime.

I don't think the gun is the problem, but rather it's the socioeconomic status of the area. Some of the worst shootings ever took place at schools - but the evidence shows that these lunatics typically choose "gun free" zones. Allowing law abiding people to legally carry at schools will almost certainly not cause the problems you fear.

I was researching a bit and found that Australia leads the world in "total crime victims" per capita. At the top of the list are all countries with either no guns, or extreme restrictions/limitations on gun ownership. The US, is much further down the list than I would have at first expected. I really do think knowing that a person is almost guaranteed to not be armed emboldens criminals.

www.nationmaster.com...

originally posted by: TinkerHaus

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: TinkerHaus

if what you are saying is correct why has there not been a massive increase of violent crime here in australia when guns were taken of the street ?

Did I say it was a "massive" increase?

Why don't you look at the figured and find out what happened when guns were taken from good, honest people in Australia?

here....

In the wake of the Port Arthur massacre and Monash University shootings, the conservative government of John Howard introduced a series of gun laws. These restricted who could own guns and the type of guns they could own. While the impact of the Australian gun laws is still debated, there have been large decreases in the number of firearm suicides and the number of firearm homicides in Australia. Homicide rates in Australia are only 1.2 per 100,000 people, with less than 15% of these resulting from firearms. Prior to the implementation of the gun laws, 112 people were killed in 11 mass shootings. Since the implementation of the gun laws, no comparable gun massacres have occurred in Australia. Remarkably, American pro-gun advocates try to use the impact of the Australian gun law reform to make a case that reform “doesn’t work”. This seems amazing given the homicide rate in the United States is five per 100,000 people, with most homicides involving firearms. When gun advocates use Australian crime stats, they sometimes employ a number of misleading tricks and sleights of hand. These tricks are common to several politically charged debates, and are a form of pseudo-science. Let’s look at these tricks in action.

theconversation.com...

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: TinkerHaus

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: TinkerHaus

if what you are saying is correct why has there not been a massive increase of violent crime here in australia when guns were taken of the street ?

Did I say it was a "massive" increase?

Why don't you look at the figured and find out what happened when guns were taken from good, honest people in Australia?

here....

In the wake of the Port Arthur massacre and Monash University shootings, the conservative government of John Howard introduced a series of gun laws. These restricted who could own guns and the type of guns they could own. While the impact of the Australian gun laws is still debated, there have been large decreases in the number of firearm suicides and the number of firearm homicides in Australia. Homicide rates in Australia are only 1.2 per 100,000 people, with less than 15% of these resulting from firearms. Prior to the implementation of the gun laws, 112 people were killed in 11 mass shootings. Since the implementation of the gun laws, no comparable gun massacres have occurred in Australia. Remarkably, American pro-gun advocates try to use the impact of the Australian gun law reform to make a case that reform “doesn’t work”. This seems amazing given the homicide rate in the United States is five per 100,000 people, with most homicides involving firearms. When gun advocates use Australian crime stats, they sometimes employ a number of misleading tricks and sleights of hand. These tricks are common to several politically charged debates, and are a form of pseudo-science. Let’s look at these tricks in action.

theconversation.com...

Yes but more people are victims of crime in Aus, and more people are assaulted in Australia, per capita of course, than in the USA.

www.nationmaster.com...

I think the article, and how it states that organizations use pseudo-science, is the pot calling the kettle black. You can not look just at gun crimes, but what happens to the rate of all crimes overall. If you have less gun crime but more rape and assaults, did you really win?

Your article talks about how suicides with firearms went down, but Aus still has a higher suicide rate than the US, and we ALL have guns here. So obviously having a gun doesn't make you more likely to kill yourself.

Australia has a higher rate of property crime than the US. Australia has twice the rate of robbery victims than the US.

In the US we have a higher perception of safety when people were asked if they felt safe walking in the dark..

You have about 63% more car thefts than we do in the US.

Less people believe in police efficiency in Australia than in the US.

It is estimated also that less crimes that take place are reported to police in Australia than in the US as well - so some of these figures are a little more extreme than what the data can tell us.

We do have more murders here, but murder tends to happen primarily in metropolitan areas - and we have many more metropolitan areas than you do in Australia.

All I'm saying is that it's a give and take situation. You make gains in some areas and you lose ground in others when you remove guns from the public. And you will never remove all guns from the criminal elements in a society.

All of this data can be found here: www.nationmaster.com...

Sorry to get so off track, but this does kind of back up my argument that we should allow concealed and perhaps even open carry on college campuses.

a reply to: TinkerHaus

Violent crime > Gun crime > Guns per 100 residents 15 2014 41st out of 170
Violent crime > Intentional homicide rate 1.16 2010 51st out of 61
Violent crime > Murder rate 229 2010 42nd out of 86
Violent crime > Murder rate per million people 10.38 2010 73th out of 86
Violent crime > Rapes per million people 289.05 2010 6th out of 57

from your source above is Australia below is the US

Violent crime > Gun crime > Guns per 100 residents 88.8 2014 1st out of 170
Violent crime > Intentional homicide rate 4.7 2012 7th out of 14
Violent crime > Murder rate 12,996 2010 9th out of 86
Violent crime > Murder rate per million people 42.01 2010 43th out of 86
Violent crime > Rapes per million people 274.04 2010 9th out of 57

a reply to: TinkerHaus

Yes but more people are victims of crime in Aus, and more people are assaulted in Australia, per capita of course, than in the USA.

it is like comparing apples and oranges....what kinds of crime are we talking about here...look at my last post and you will see the stats from your link...it is pretty damning ...violent crime here in aus is way way way lower than the US

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: TinkerHaus

Yes but more people are victims of crime in Aus, and more people are assaulted in Australia, per capita of course, than in the USA.

it is like comparing apples and oranges....what kinds of crime are we talking about here...look at my last post and you will see the stats from your link...it is pretty damning ...violent crime here in aus is way way way lower than the US

No, check my link. Murder is lower, but assault, rape, robbery, etc, are all higher in Aus.

Again, murders tend to happen primarily in metropolitan areas. If we compared the rate of murder in metro areas between Aus and the US I wager they would be much closer. The difference is we have a lot more metro areas than you do.

Since the whole premise about open carry is about what if?

What if a legal gun owner decides he/she has had enough and goes on a killing spree?

We have heard about "legal" citizens having enough and doing the same thing...should we take the chance of it happening again in school?

I am ok with the idea of guns being around to stop a tyrannical gov, don't see how bringing them to a school full of stressed out and doped up kids has anything to do with it.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
I am ok with the idea of guns being around to stop a tyrannical gov, don't see how bringing them to a school full of stressed out and doped up kids has anything to do with it.

Back when we had Riflery in the schools, we didn't have stressed out or doped up kids.
















There used to be Boxing and Riflery classes in the schools,
but the department of Education took them out.
Reason given: we don't want all that violence near our children.

Funny thing, no one was shooting up schools when they had their own rifle teams,
and no one was being bullied in the halls when you could "Take it to the ring".

And the students would be experts in firearm safety _before_ they went to University. Even before they started drinking. The damage done in removing firearms from the education curriculum is what causes these problems.


Mike Grouchy

originally posted by: TinkerHaus

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: TinkerHaus

Yes but more people are victims of crime in Aus, and more people are assaulted in Australia, per capita of course, than in the USA.

it is like comparing apples and oranges....what kinds of crime are we talking about here...look at my last post and you will see the stats from your link...it is pretty damning ...violent crime here in aus is way way way lower than the US

No, check my link. Murder is lower, but assault, rape, robbery, etc, are all higher in Aus.

Again, murders tend to happen primarily in metropolitan areas. If we compared the rate of murder in metro areas between Aus and the US I wager they would be much closer. The difference is we have a lot more metro areas than you do.

well we will have to agree to disagree....i would wager that people in Australia feel much safer walking down the street at any time of day anywhere than people in America do....just the fact that people in the US feel the need to carry weapon when the leave the house to go pretty much anywhere is a telling statement in itself....

It's funny how some ignore the fact this isnt new to the USA and so far the world hasn't ended because a licensed trained individual concealed carries on school properties.