Judge Rules Against Christian Florist Who Refused to Provide Flowers for Gay Wedding

originally posted by: Cypress
a reply to: Metallicus

Forcing the florist to engage in a homosexual relationship would be against the religion.

Denying services based on sexual orientation of the customer is discrimination and against the law based on the civil rights act. Really is that simple.

You're wrong.

The Civil Rights Act does not include sexual orientation, so it's not as simple as that.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

In my business, I threw a Christian out of my store.

He seemed to think because he was doing God's work I should donate my services.

His laptop the church gave him was broken.

His departing words were not very Christian.

The really sad thing about this story is that the florist and the gay guy were friends for many years. He bought a lot of flowers from her. When he asked for flowers for his wedding, she took his hands and said she couldn't do it. He was shocked! He thought she accepted and loved him... He was crushed to learn that his friend of many years had these negative judgments about him.

Where did she learn that selling flowers for a gay wedding is a sin? Did she, throughout the years sell flowers to any other "sinners"? Did she "approve" of the "lifestyle" of every other customer she's had over the years? Was she even aware of the "lifestyle" of her other customers? Did she ask? Was there a questionnaire?

a reply to: Jamie1

Nope, not made up.

originally posted by: Jamie1

originally posted by: Cypress
a reply to: Metallicus

Forcing the florist to engage in a homosexual relationship would be against the religion.

Denying services based on sexual orientation of the customer is discrimination and against the law based on the civil rights act. Really is that simple.

You're wrong.

The Civil Rights Act does not include sexual orientation, so it's not as simple as that.

But some States have included it in their own.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: Jamie1

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: Jamie1

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: Jamie1

Businesses can and still do refuse business from people they simply don't like. There is no law against that.

Well, that's true unless the people they don't like can prove that they were refused because of their race, religion or sexual orientation (depending on the state). For example, if you don't like someone who is black or Jewish or gay, then you'd better be careful about refusing their business.

What about white or Christian?

Well, that's true unless the people they don't like can prove that they were refused because of their race, religion or sexual orientation (depending on the state).

White is a race and Christian is a religion, no?

I'm not sure if "white" is a race or not. There is much discussion and controversy over how that is defined.

For example, what race is Obama?

According to the legal definition of race, white is a race. According to science, there is no "race" - only cultural and ethnic groups.

I think there used to be a law back in the Jim Crow days, that said if you were half black, you were considered all black, because you were "tainted". Obama is obviously of mixed race, but he could be perceived as black because he looks more black than white. So, conceivably, he could sue a white store owner who refused him service because the store owner perceived him as a black man.

How does Obama look "more black" than white?

Can you explain this? You mean you can't self-identify your own race? It's based on how other perceive you?

It's not that simple.

You might want to read this.

The PC diversity crowd has created a legal nightmare because "race" can't be easily defined, and yet by law one cannot discriminate based on what is called "race."

An example of the legal nightmare?

Schools allow students to "self-identify" gender, i.e., a person with a penis can be "female" legally. But race is based on geographic "origin" and appearance.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
The really sad thing about this story is that the florist and the gay guy were friends for many years. He bought a lot of flowers from her. When he asked for flowers for his wedding, she took his hands and said she couldn't do it. He was shocked! He thought she accepted and loved him... He was crushed to learn that his friend of many years had these negative judgments about him.

Where did she learn that selling flowers for a gay wedding is a sin? Did she, throughout the years sell flowers to any other "sinners"? Did she "approve" of the "lifestyle" of every other customer she's had over the years? Was she even aware of the "lifestyle" of her other customers? Did she ask? Was there a questionnaire?

One person didn't respect the other's sexual lifestyle.

The other didn't respect religious beliefs.

Forget the state law for a second.

If I had a friend who asked me to do something for him, and I said I had a moral objection to it, and he insisted to the point of suing me, then I would be happy he's no longer a friend.

Now after hearing about these cases, and they get old very quickly the following can be stated:

The question is can a business refuse to do business with a person or persons, yes. However if they interject personal reason, that is where they get into trouble with the law and face charges and lawsuits on the grounds of discrimination. This legal precedent was set in the 1964, in the case of Heart of Atlanta Motel, inc. v. United States of America. In that case the owner of the motel stated, as part of a defense of not renting to black travelers, that the government did not have the authority to tell him who he could and could not do business with, and that the congress had overstepped its bounds in the laws. The justices decided the case in a 6 to 3 decision. In short the government has the power to force private owned businesses to do business and abide by the laws of the country and all acts, as granted by the constitution of the USA and the Commerce clause.

Having looked at the article and the video, while as noble as her faith is, the moment she stated the reason was based on faith, and the business owner is now liable to any and all lawsuits that are brought up against her. There is only one group who can get away with such discrimination and those are ministers. They have the legal standing to discriminate, as long as they are not operating a for profit business.

As sad as it is, religion is only permissible as a private part of life, and should not be so public, lest you offend. And in states where they are heavily into same sex rights, like the coasts, such will lose every time.

Now personally I would not go to a business that would discriminate, instead, rather than take them to court, I would go to their competition and give them business, and use the time honored practice of voting with my wallet and feet. If more people did that and worked to make a business successful, it would send a stronger message to those who do not want to do business with one group, and that would encourage/force them to change their policies to stay in business or seek something else to do.

I still don't agree that she should be sued or held accountable for anything apart from being a jerk, so to speak. Yeah. It's horrible, especially considering she was friends with the guy for ages, but she should not be sued or forced to sell anyone anything.

I do understand this is how the law works so please don't try to explain that to me. I don't agree with the law. If you own something you should have FULL rights over it. It's bad enough that you have to jump through a million hoops to start up a business nowadays, the least you should get is the right to decide who you sell to or not. It's not like its an integral public service that's being denied. It's a somewhat trivial business owned by what appears to be one person. That one person doesn't want to sell to another person for personal reasons. Now that person is being as good as forced to do so..

This is just wrong to me. I'm not buying the false sense of freedom in this story. Freedom isn't freedom when it is at the expense of someone else. I'm Christian and I would still sell to a Gay person. My landlord is gay and a fair few of my friends are. I think she's being an idiot to be honest (I still disagree with Gay Marriage but I'm not gonna try and stop it), I would still sell to a Gay bloke no problem. I still don't think she's doing anything that can be considered criminal!!

a reply to: OneManArmy

Sorry it took me a while - I wanted to think about this one. There's a lot in that post I'm not really up for arguing about right now, but - there is this

Im not a christian, although I was brought up in a christian country. I have absorbed so much christianity, that cannot be denied. But, I am not a christian. There are too many contradictions in organised religion for my liking.

You and I are the same in this - exactly. I grew up with Christian family and Christian friends. I'm not Christian. There's a reason why you bring this up - and why we both use this same information to make our point - even if it's to argue against each other

There's an idea that this argument for equal rights is part of an anti-Christian agenda. What this is truly about is creating a society where we treat each other equally - legally. And only legally - in public. Some (and it is only some) Christians want to legislate morality. It's ironic - I know...

Owning a business is not sacred. Being a business owner doesn't put anybody above the law. Unless you own a bank

We have to live together. We've already agreed on equality in this country. Looks like we have to put this to the test - one more time

As for the quote and reason you called me humourless in the first place, I was actually agreeing with you, measuri
My goal is to leave this mortal coil with my honour and integrity intact, then I will personally feel I have tried my best to live an honest life and hopefully will have nothing to regret. I think that would coexist pretty well with a Buddhist ideology.

I quoted this part because I liked it :-)

I also believe in personal honor - integrity - honesty. I'd really like to live an honest life with as few regrets as humanly possible. We'll see...I'm not Buddhist, but the idea of Buddhism (and more so Taoism) helps to keep me honest by forcing me to contemplate - everything

a reply to: Jamie1

Why don't we ask Obama?

WASHINGTON — He may be the world's foremost mixed-race leader, but when it came to the official government head count, President Barack Obama gave only one answer to the question about his ethnic background: African-American. www.huffingtonpost.com...

Tiger Woods answer is better. (BTW, he's actually predominately Asian)

Woods said it bothers him when people call him an African-American. ''It does,'' he said Monday during the taping in Chicago. ''Growing up, I came up with this name. I'm a 'Cablinasian.''' Woods' race has often been an issue in a game played predominantly by whites. It was brought to the forefront again when Fuzzy Zoeller referred to him as ''that little boy'' and urged him not to put fried chicken or collard greens on the menu of the Champions Dinner next year at Augusta National. Woods is one-fourth black, one-fourth Thai, one-fourth Chinese, one-eighth white and one-eighth American Indian. lubbockonline.com...

Well it seems the gay people in this country are helpless do nothings with severe mental problems. Is hers the only florist in the state? Seems to me that if you really wanted to "show them" you would start your own florist. No, lets destroy the Christian with the help of a borderline psychotic judge..

I have a feeling the alphabet LGBTQ community will rue the day they pressed these non-issues so hard.

How many more letters are they going to add tho their never ending identity crisis anyway?

originally posted by: truckdriver42
Well it seems the gay people in this country are helpless do nothings with severe mental problems. Is hers the only florist in the state? Seems to me that if you really wanted to "show them" you would start your own florist. No, lets destroy the Christian with the help of a borderline psychotic judge..

I have a feeling the alphabet LGBTQ community will rue the day they pressed these non-issues so hard.

How many more letters are they going to add tho their never ending identity crisis anyway?

"Well, it seems the negroes in this country are helpless do nothings with severe mental problems. Why can't they be happy going to the "black only" florist? No, let's destroy the white community with the help of a borderline psychotic judge.

I have a feeling the negro community will rue the day they pressed on these non-issues so hard."

Yeah.... that old dog just ain't gonna hunt no more. Welcome to the 21st century.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: truckdriver42
Well it seems the gay people in this country are helpless do nothings with severe mental problems. Is hers the only florist in the state? Seems to me that if you really wanted to "show them" you would start your own florist. No, lets destroy the Christian with the help of a borderline psychotic judge..

I have a feeling the alphabet LGBTQ community will rue the day they pressed these non-issues so hard.

How many more letters are they going to add tho their never ending identity crisis anyway?

"Well, it seems the negroes in this country are helpless do nothings with severe mental problems. Why can't they be happy going to the "black only" florist? No, let's destroy the white community with the help of a borderline psychotic judge.

I have a feeling the negro community will rue the day they pressed on these non-issues so hard."

Yeah.... that old dog just ain't gonna hunt no more. Welcome to the 21st century.

Comparing homosexuality to race is like comparing apples with oranges.
You can hide your sexuality, you cannot hide the colour of your skin.
You dont necessarily know that somebody is gay just by looking at them. They have to make a point of letting you know.

Welcome to two completely different arguments.

Am I allowed to run a red light because Jesus says I can? Uh no, it is against the law.

Am I allowed to discriminate against LGBT in this state because Jesus told me to? Uh no, it is against the law.

Jesus doesn't get to pick and choose which laws he can break.